Dear fellow Osmocom developers,
as you all know, we've sadly had to skip OsmoDevCon 2020 and 2021, trying to compensate it at least to some extent with our OsmoDevCall every two weeks.
The COVID-19 pandemic is far from over, and we don't know what the upcoming winter season will bring.
Nevertheless, I think it would be a good idea to start a discussion of whether we should plan for an OsmoDevCon in 2022.
I personally would say let's plan for the usual late April 2022 time frame, and if the pandemic situation deteriorates, we can still cancel it with something like one month lead time.
I would also personally suggest to limit attendance to people who are fully vaccinated, and in addition do a self-test for all participants every morning.
In terms of venue, we might also consider to move to a venue that allows better ventilation. Irrespective of the above we can also bring the air filters from the sysmocom office.
So with that as an input statement, I would like to hear your opinion on the above proposals. Who would want to attend? Any complaints against the "vaccinated only plus daily self-tests in the morning" approach?
Regards, Harald
Hi Harald,
I'm definitely for it and would attend and the usual timeframe sounds good.
As for the modalities. - Vaccinated : Sure. - Self Test : Although a test before departure sounds like a good idea, I'm not really sure of the need / efficacy of a day to day test. But I also have no issue taking one if people are more comfortable that way or think it's worth it. - Venue : Obvious questions is what are the alternatives :) - Ventilation : I honestly have no idea on the efficacy of that, but if you got filters for the sysmocom office, I guess you did some research and if they are movable and not obnoxiously loud, that can't hurt. - Masks : You didn't mention it in your original email, but personally I think in this context ( low number of people, but quite extended period of time, + meals / drinks ), their efficacy would be negligible. But again, if the consensus is to wear them, I have no issues with that.
This is of course just my 2ct and also for my personal situation (like for instance I know I can easily have a week "buffer" before/after the event where I'll have virtually no contacts). Looking forward to hear what others think.
Cheers,
Sylvain
Hi Sylvain,
thanks for your feedback
On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 11:22:21AM +0100, Sylvain Munaut wrote:
I'm definitely for it and would attend and the usual timeframe sounds good.
excellent, so we're already two :)
- Self Test : Although a test before departure sounds like a good
idea, I'm not really sure of the need / efficacy of a day to day test. But I also have no issue taking one if people are more comfortable that way or think it's worth it.
I've seen this done at some of the companies I was visiting in recent months, as well as some hacker related gatherings. Not sure if it really makes much sense either. Given that it's negligable cost and quick to do, I had proposed it.
- Venue : Obvious questions is what are the alternatives :)
sysmocom could of course rent some kind of venue in a hotel, like we did for the second OsmoCon at that time.
I "like" the IN-Berlin venue because we know it well and it has an undeniable authentic DIY + hacker spirit. I also know it is not the most practical venue in terms of size/space/comfort. Plus in the context of proper ventilation in COVID times something with more space between participants and more air volume might be better suited.
Of course there's quite some cost associated with a regular commercial hotel conference room, and it would also mean we cannot have a variety of external catering options like we did in the past.
Cost-wise, sysmocom could certainly cover it - but of course we don't have to throw funds at the hotel industry unless the participants consider it advantageous in some way.
- Ventilation : I honestly have no idea on the efficacy of that, but
if you got filters for the sysmocom office, I guess you did some research and if they are movable and not obnoxiously loud, that can't hurt.
They are small, movable and quiet. I also am not sure how much it helps, but given those factors it doesn't really have any downside.
- Masks : You didn't mention it in your original email, but
personally I think in this context ( low number of people, but quite extended period of time, + meals / drinks ), their efficacy would be negligible. But again, if the consensus is to wear them, I have no issues with that.
I agree, plus wearing masks for four days all day long is not really practical, so I didn't even consider it.
On 11/2/21 11:22, Sylvain Munaut wrote:
Hi Harald,
I'm definitely for it and would attend and the usual timeframe sounds good.
As for the modalities.
- Vaccinated : Sure.
Agree, I consider this a must (or some sort of equivalent certificate).
- Self Test : Although a test before departure sounds like a good
idea, I'm not really sure of the need / efficacy of a day to day test. But I also have no issue taking one if people are more comfortable that way or think it's worth it.
I'd say at least providing a PCR/antigen test over last 24-48h is enough, given that I expect no much social interaction with third parties once OsmoDevCon starts, since we'll be most part of the day together. That'd be fine for me. Maybe one can be enforced during the first day at start of the event.
- Venue : Obvious questions is what are the alternatives :)
While in general I like being at IN Berlin during the conferences, it would be a good idea to explore other venues for this year, were we can have a bit more space between people and a bigger volume of ventilated air, maybe also with some extra place outside.
- Masks : You didn't mention it in your original email, but
personally I think in this context ( low number of people, but quite extended period of time, + meals / drinks ), their efficacy would be negligible. But again, if the consensus is to wear them, I have no issues with that.
The specific rules regarding this topic can probably be discussed/announced a few days/weeks before the event, to take into account current legislation, epidemic numbers, etc. since it doesn't involve any kind of organization ahead.
Regards, Pau
Hi everybody,
I want to show up! I'm now "nearby", in Moscow, so if Covid pandemic does not gets worse, I think I'll have no problem in making to it.
Best regards, Rafael Rhizomatica
On 11/2/21 12:25 PM, Harald Welte wrote:
Dear fellow Osmocom developers,
as you all know, we've sadly had to skip OsmoDevCon 2020 and 2021, trying to compensate it at least to some extent with our OsmoDevCall every two weeks.
The COVID-19 pandemic is far from over, and we don't know what the upcoming winter season will bring.
Nevertheless, I think it would be a good idea to start a discussion of whether we should plan for an OsmoDevCon in 2022.
I personally would say let's plan for the usual late April 2022 time frame, and if the pandemic situation deteriorates, we can still cancel it with something like one month lead time.
I would also personally suggest to limit attendance to people who are fully vaccinated, and in addition do a self-test for all participants every morning.
In terms of venue, we might also consider to move to a venue that allows better ventilation. Irrespective of the above we can also bring the air filters from the sysmocom office.
So with that as an input statement, I would like to hear your opinion on the above proposals. Who would want to attend? Any complaints against the "vaccinated only plus daily self-tests in the morning" approach?
Regards, Harald
I would attend (if the venue is in or near Berlin), April seems fine.
COVID: I'm less concerned about myself, but more about carrying it to people near me, which extends to all of society, so I feel an obligation to have some restrictions and requirements against COVID. It's not only up to us. I'm +1 on requiring vaccination to attend by default. Maybe with the option for attendees to request attendance despite no vaccination, and then see whether we can unanimously agree on that?
About testing: it is possible to become contagious days after a negative test, so only one test at the beginning is not doing it properly. In schools here the requirement is to test every second day. We could adopt that.
About the venue, ideal would be IN-Berlin just twice the size. Spontaneously thinking of CCC Marienstraße? I usually feel uncomfortable in a hotel / business meeting environment.
~N
requiring vaccination to attend by default. Maybe with the option for attendees to request attendance despite no vaccination, and then see whether we can unanimously agree on that?
I'd like to add that I find it should also be sufficient to have recovered from COVID. This is a common rule in schools in Berlin that does relieve teachers from the need to test regularly (called 2G, incidentally).
Another question is whether we play by RKI rules and not accept certain vaccines.
I guess we should first see whether anyone would be refused attendance based on these rules and take it from there?
Here is a dudle to anonymously figure out the current vaccination status. Feel free to enter your current status, especially if you're not fully vaccinated and would like to attend. This is just to get a basis for discussion:
https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/w93G6NPqfA/
I guess we need to repeat such poll in early '22.
Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
I'd like to add that I find it should also be sufficient to have recovered from COVID.
Back in December 2020 into January 2021 I was indeed sick with Covid; one could even argue that I caught it deliberately on purpose, as I was defiantly attending every illegal superspreader event I could find in my neck of the woods, until I finally got my wish of catching the C in late December. I never got tested, never got put on any official counts of "cases", and I principally refused any and all medical care, i.e., I recovered entirely on my own with zero medical assistance or intervention.
Beyond my word, the only evidence I have of having had Covid and having recovered from it consists of antibodies in my blood. When I had my gender confirmation surgery in Mexico a little over 2 months ago (late August), they insisted on doing their Covid test; I objected to the hockey stick up my nose, so they did a blood test instead - initially. On the morning of my surgery they drew my blood, and then they tell me that the test came out positive! Their next step was to do a PCR test; thankfully they agreed to do their PCR with an oropharyngeal swab instead of nasopharyngeal, and it came out negative, hence I was able to get my surgery done on the original schedule.
I looked up what kind of Covid-related blood tests exist out there, and as far as I can tell, a blood test means an antibody test, not anything else. Thus the positive blood test which I had on the morning of August 26 in Tijuana must have been a Covid antibody test, with the positive result meaning that I have those antibodies in my blood, or at least did back in August. I am currently in the process of attempting to retrieve a record of that antibody test from the Mexican medical office that coordinated my surgery.
If I do get a copy of those blood test results showing that I had Covid antibodies in me as of 2021-08-26, would it be sufficient proof for your purposes that I recovered from Covid? Would I be then eligible to attend your Berlin gathering without vaccination or further testing requirements? I am including the part about further testing requirements because you mentioned:
This is a common rule in schools in Berlin that does relieve teachers from the need to test regularly (called 2G, incidentally).
For me a trip to Berlin would be a *big* financial undertaking, both in direct costs (flight and accommodations) and time away from other activities such as my day job - thus I cannot take any chances. Being asked to take further tests, with my ability to attend conditionalized on the test yielding a certain result, would be akin to being asked to flip a coin on the morning of the event and being denied attendance if the coin lands tails - absolutely not acceptable given the financial commitment involved in travel. Therefore, the only way I will be able to make the travel investment (buy the plane ticket and make the major time investment as well) would be if there are NO further barriers such as tests.
M~
Hey Mychaela, as Neels pointed out, it's not only up to Osmocom.
None of us have any idea what might be the requirements to enter Germany by the time April comes around.
Please, let's not go any deeper into arguing covid or health/medical procedures on THIS list, AFAIK there's not a lot of virologists/epidemiologists/etc or even health practitioners (alternative or otherwise) on here.
Best wishes,
Keith.
Hi Keith,
Hey Mychaela, as Neels pointed out, it's not only up to Osmocom.
None of us have any idea what might be the requirements to enter Germany by the time April comes around.
Entering Germany is not the problem - I have my ways. They are not entirely legal, so I am not going to discuss them in detail, but as a hint, there exist certain white cards to which I may have access, and I know that other people of my kind have successfully used the same methods very recently, successfully accessing other nearby EU countries for the purpose of physically meeting up with personal friends of like mind.
My point is, I am fairly confident that entering Germany in 2022-04 will be possible for me, even if it isn't totally legal. Instead my real concern lies squarely and solely with Osmocom: if I do make it into your country using some not-quite-legal means, will _YOU_ bar me from _YOUR_ meeting space, the one under YOUR control? That's the central issue here.
Given both the financial costs involved and the very major hoops I will most likely need to jump through to make it into EU and then back into USA in one piece, I will need very substantial foreplanning. If I am going to having any chance of making it, I will need to start making preparations now, 6 months in advance, hence me raising the topic.
Or alternatively, I would be quite happy to stay on my side of the ocean if I could convince *at least one* person from your camp to come to Mexico (or to USA) and meet up with me as a gesture of friendship and goodwill, on a schedule that does not conflict with your Berlin meeting - but so far I got none.
M~
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 04:10:54PM -0800, Mychaela Falconia wrote:
Entering Germany is not the problem - I have my ways. They are not entirely legal, so I am not going to discuss them in detail
Based on the incompatible levels of precaution we deem necessary, I've decided for myself that if Mychaela attends OsmoDevCon in person, I would participate remotely, only. Being near her would make me feel quite uncomfortable.
Mychaela, this is explicitly not dismissing your opinion, it is simply keeping up my own opinion besides yours. I accept that you have your ways, but they are not mine. Having my ways unfortunately means to maintain distance.
~N
Dear Neels and List,
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 10:47:47AM +0100, Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
Based on the incompatible levels of precaution we deem necessary, I've decided for myself that if Mychaela attends OsmoDevCon in person, I would participate remotely, only. Being near her would make me feel quite uncomfortable.
Note: I have received several such statements from other trusted long-term Osmocom developers via alternative / private channels. Based on the behavior we have repeatedly seen exhibited for a number of years by now, I can certainly understand those concerns.
In order to host an event with trusted long-term collaborators in the usual productive, non-controversial, peaceful manner, I hereby declare that we do not extend a related invitation to Mychaela to participate in OsmoDevCon.
@Mychaela: I would appreciate if you direct any potential criticism to me privately and not discuss this further on a list that is intended to facilitate technical exchange of open source development. Thanks for your kind understanding.
Hi Neels,
On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 05:07:35PM +0100, Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
About testing: it is possible to become contagious days after a negative test, so only one test at the beginning is not doing it properly. In schools here the requirement is to test every second day. We could adopt that.
We can still discuss this, of course. As I stated, I personally wouldn't mind doing a test every morning.
About the venue, ideal would be IN-Berlin just twice the size. Spontaneously thinking of CCC Marienstraße?
Based on mails I'm reading, the latter currently seems in a rather poor general state and they are planning a variety of renovations. Not sure what the state will be by April.
Also, it is unlikely that one would be able to occupy both floors for four days. During the past 1.5 years it was pretty abandoned, but "normally" it is visited by the regular users and
I usually feel uncomfortable in a hotel / business meeting environment.
Sorry to hear that, but I hope that the amount of technical content and the social interactions will help you to ignore that to some point.
There are certainly are some alternatives like e.g. https://www.exrotaprint.de/projektraum/ which would be 185 square meters, but I haven't yet asked about whether we could use it day+night and what the rates are.
Regards, Harald
On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 10:25:47AM +0100, Harald Welte wrote:
I personally would say let's plan for the usual late April 2022 time frame, and if the pandemic situation deteriorates, we can still cancel it with something like one month lead time.
I'm also happy to help with the recording and streaming of the public talks for those not able to join on site. sure, it would not cover all other aspects of a gathering, but provides a light way of participation.
I would also personally suggest to limit attendance to people who are fully vaccinated, and in addition do a self-test for all participants every morning.
I don't mind self-testing, particularly for "larger" venues with plenty of prolonged contacts. they're easy to make and inexpensive, a relative small constraint if it allows to have such an event again.
On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 10:25:47AM +0100, Harald Welte wrote:
I personally would say let's plan for the usual late April 2022 time frame, and if the pandemic situation deteriorates, we can still cancel it with something like one month lead time.
I'm also happy to help with the recording and streaming of the public talks for those not able to join on site. sure, it would not cover all other aspects of a gathering, but provides a light way of participation.
I would also personally suggest to limit attendance to people who are fully vaccinated, and in addition do a self-test for all participants every morning.
I don't mind self-testing, particularly for "larger" venues with plenty of prolonged contacts. they're easy to make and inexpensive, a relative small constraint if it allows to have such an event again.
On 05/11/2021 07:18, Kévin Redon wrote:
I'm also happy to help with the recording and streaming of the public talks for those not able to join on site.
Great Kevin, Thanks. This is something not touched upon yet, other than assuming that as always, talks would be recorded for consumption by the wider community. I assume also that adding some text or video remote participation will also not be beyond us. At least for Q&A, Engel - style.
For my part, at this time I don't feel I have so much to contribute that would justify travel, health risks etc. So watching live or recordings will probably be sufficient - In fact, having reference to this archive is vital, I have often referenced videos after forgetting things - there's just too much to take in across 4 days of OsmoDevCon.
Something that occurs to me, but it's not a personal preference, attendance is highly unlikely - but is there any reason to plan for late April, other than tradition? The few degrees of higher ambient temperature that are likely in late, or even mid May would seem to make ventilation so much easier. - My preferred venue - OUTSIDE! Remember those days at MarienStr when the sun came out, that was great!
Thanks for organising a devcon! Best wishes to all and here's hoping for some relief next spring and a smooth event! (I have an unexplainable, totally nonrational gut feeling that covid-19 might just somehow fade away around early spring)
k.
P.D. For what it's worth, for the "record" as they say: IMHO people's health is on the greater part their own business and responsibility. So personally, I would have no agenda to segregate people. Besides, unless one would quarantine 3 or 4 days before, somehow travel to the venue in a bubble, stay there for the entire con and return home in a bubble to again quarantine, one could never be sure of the source of any infection. At the end of the day, If any unvaccinated people are free to move about in society by end of next spring, it seems likely that their immunity will be in very good shape, severe winter lockdown notwithstanding. In terms of tests, my personal experience has been that they are so unreliable as to be worse than useless, bordering on dangerous. So I'd skip that.
Hi Keith,
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 11:55:39AM -0600, Keith wrote:
Great Kevin, Thanks. This is something not touched upon yet, other than assuming that as always, talks would be recorded for consumption by the wider community.
As usual, this is up to the individual speaker[s].
I assume also that adding some text or video remote participation will also not be beyond us. At least for Q&A, Engel - style.
At the very least we can of course simply use #osmocom as channel to ask questions via text. But we can certainly also consider running a BBB or Jitsi session for Q+A.
Something that occurs to me, but it's not a personal preference, attendance is highly unlikely - but is there any reason to plan for late April, other than tradition?
Not really anything beyond tradition and "let's not delay it any further". For logistical reasons, it is also good to stay clear of both easter and whitsun school holidays [hotels / flights will be more busy then]. So April 11 .. 23 and May 27 .. June 7 should be avoided in 2022.
My current target would have been April 30 .. May 2nd timeframe.
But I'm not fundamentally opposed to a change of schedule, if there are more people arguing for that, particularly those wanting to attend in person.
The few degrees of higher ambient temperature that are likely in late, or even mid May would seem to make ventilation so much easier. - My preferred venue - OUTSIDE! Remember those days at MarienStr when the sun came out, that was great!
IMHO Outdoor is unrealistic for a variety of reasons, if not only for being able to have sufficient contrast for following a presentation on a projected screen. Obviously, there's also weather uncertainty, so you cannot plan an event outdoor. Other than putting up large tents, which then also doesn't really help ventilation...
Hi Kevin,
On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 02:18:14PM +0100, Kévin Redon wrote:
I'm also happy to help with the recording and streaming of the public talks for those not able to join on site.
thanks for that, as usual.
Getting back to this discussion,
It has become clear that
* people are interested in an on-site event * we want a larger venue with more air / space, which still is not a hotel/conference room (I'll try to make that happen and am confident) * daily self-testing is OK
There was a proposal to move it to slightly later in the year (e.g. late May instead of late April) in order to enjoy better weather, be able to get more fresh air into the venue, and spend more time outdoor.
So far I only remember Keith making the proposal but no other comments on that.
To me, it doesn't make much of a difference if it's late April or late May, as long as we stay clear of school holidays (starting may 27).
Given that the COVID-19 situation quickly deteriorates at this point, I also think a longer delay between winter and the event would be a good idea, as it means a likely much lower probability of infection during travel, etc.
So, unless anyone has a strong preference for April over May, I will be looking into organizing a venue for a tentative date of May 19...23.
Regards, Harald
I do prefer in May also, with a slightly warm weather.
Cheers, Rafael
On 11/15/21 10:44 AM, Harald Welte wrote:
Getting back to this discussion,
It has become clear that
- people are interested in an on-site event
- we want a larger venue with more air / space, which still is not a hotel/conference room (I'll try to make that happen and am confident)
- daily self-testing is OK
There was a proposal to move it to slightly later in the year (e.g. late May instead of late April) in order to enjoy better weather, be able to get more fresh air into the venue, and spend more time outdoor.
So far I only remember Keith making the proposal but no other comments on that.
To me, it doesn't make much of a difference if it's late April or late May, as long as we stay clear of school holidays (starting may 27).
Given that the COVID-19 situation quickly deteriorates at this point, I also think a longer delay between winter and the event would be a good idea, as it means a likely much lower probability of infection during travel, etc.
So, unless anyone has a strong preference for April over May, I will be looking into organizing a venue for a tentative date of May 19...23.
Regards, Harald
Dear fellow developers,
given the rather unfortunate development of the pandemic both globally with Omicron, as well as particularly locally in Berlin, I decided to further postpone an on-site OsmoDevCon. At least the late April / early May time frame seemed unrealistic.
Shifting the event further towards or into summer seems more realistic from a pandemic point of view, as experience over the past years has shown much lower infection rates then. However, there are of course holiday plans, etc. that might more likely conflict with OsmoDevCon at such a time.
I have started a poll at https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/TrmQAhYOWA/ in order to understand whether there's a preference for a specific month, and I'd like to invite everyone to state their preference in this poll (can also be done anonymously).
The venue and format can of course also still be discussed. I would think that having everyone in the same hotel would reduce the amount of contacts, as not every participant meets different hotel staff, has to commute through a city spending time with hundreds of other different people every day in public transport or the like. This might of course increase cost, but I'm sure we can find a solution for that.
One of the random thoughts I had was to use https://www.linuxhotel.de/ - a hotel + conference venue specifically dedicated to FOSS with plenty of outdoor space. However, it's at least a 35min cab ride from the closest airports (DUS, DTM) and about an hour from CGN. For people arriving long distance by car or train there's probably little difference compared to Berlin.
Regards, Harald
Dear fellow Osmocom developers,
more than a month later and the world is a completely different place once again.
Given that the number of daily infections and deaths are again rising in Germany, I am rather happy that we didn't settle for a spring date in / around our usual April time frame.
On Wed, Feb 02, 2022 at 08:28:41AM +0100, Harald Welte wrote:
I have started a poll at https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/TrmQAhYOWA/ in order to understand whether there's a preference for a specific month, and I'd like to invite everyone to state their preference in this poll (can also be done anonymously).
the poll has shown a clear preference for September. So if we are to hold an OsmoDevCon this year, it will definitely be in September.
The venue and format can of course also still be discussed. I would think that having everyone in the same hotel would reduce the amount of contacts, as not every participant meets different hotel staff, has to commute through a city spending time with hundreds of other different people every day in public transport or the like. This might of course increase cost, but I'm sure we can find a solution for that.
I haven't really seen much feedback on that topic. I still like that idea, and the limited feedback I've seen was positive / neutral, so I think I'll continue to explore in that direction.
Regards, Harald
-
Harald Welte -
Keith -
Kévin Redon -
Kévin Redon -
Mychaela Falconia -
Neels Hofmeyr -
Pau Espin Pedrol -
Rafael Diniz -
Sylvain Munaut