Hi Peter and others,
it seems like the situation regarding the GSM network at the Camp is starting to become clearer every day.
I am still arguing that two relatively large BTS with circular antennas are a good idea. Therefore, I have now applied for a test license with the regulatory authority with the following parameters: * six GSM 1800 ARFCN * two antennas, circular, 18 meters above ground * 5W output power on each ARFCN. I know one of my customers in Germany has once managed to get a license for 5W, so I thought it is a good bet we should get the same. It should be more than sufficient to cover the camp. * from August 2nd through August 15th, i.e. we have time for build-up and can also run it one more day during shutdown of the camp
I should be receiving "Motorola Horizon Macro" BTSs with 3 to 6 TRX each soon. They are able to drive something like >= 20W output power, way more than we need. The only problem with those BTS is: We will need to add the Motorola A-bis dialect to OpenBSC before the Camp, which could be a tough task depending on how far they are off the standard A-bis as specified in 08.58 and 12.21.
If we cannot make those BTS work, our options are somewhat limited.
1) nanoBTS based The nanoBTS are 200mW only, so we would need a booster. Those cost about 1000 EUR for 6W downlink power + 18dB uplink LNA. Who is going to fund that? Also, we would need a combiner/splitter to run something like a 3-TRX setup.
2) Ericsson RBS I should have two RBS 2308 (4TRX each) soon, but both of them are GSM 1900. It is unlikely that we ge a license, and a lot of phones probably don't support it. So unless they can somehow be converted to 1800 MHz units, they are not a good fit either :/
3) Siemens BS-11 All of them are GSM 900. No way to get a license in Germany, sorry.
So we basically _have to_ make the Motorola Horizon work...
Regards, Harald
Hi Harald,
Am 04.06.2011 21:06, schrieb Harald Welte:
Hi Peter and others,
it seems like the situation regarding the GSM network at the Camp is starting to become clearer every day.
I am still arguing that two relatively large BTS with circular antennas are a good idea. Therefore, I have now applied for a test license with the regulatory authority with the following parameters:
- six GSM 1800 ARFCN
- two antennas, circular, 18 meters above ground
- 5W output power on each ARFCN. I know one of my customers in Germany has once managed to get a license for 5W, so I thought it is a good bet we should get the same. It should be more than sufficient to cover the camp.
- from August 2nd through August 15th, i.e. we have time for build-up and can also run it one more day during shutdown of the camp
I can confirm that a 5W test license is possible. At the Univeristy of Freiburg we have a license for three ARFCN with 5W ERP max. The license was pretty easy to get. The application was just an e-mail with an the addition that we like to have a licence with the most possible transmission power. The Bundesnetzagentur also confirmed that a license in Karlsruhe with 5W as part of the GPN 2011 [1] is possible.
The 18 meters above ground could be a problem in combination with the high output power. Our test license is limited to some meters above ground. At the moment I don't have the exact maximum height but I thing is is something between 5 and 8 meters.
- nanoBTS based The nanoBTS are 200mW only, so we would need a booster. Those cost about 1000 EUR for 6W downlink power + 18dB uplink LNA. Who is going to fund that? Also, we would need a combiner/splitter to run something like a 3-TRX setup.
We have two nanoBTS-Booster 1800 here at the university. If for some reason the Ericsson RBS is not working it should be possible to lend you the two bossters for the time of the camp. We also have a splitter and combiner. I will test the splitter/combiner in combination with a booster at the GPN end of this month.
Best Regards Konrad
Hi Konrad,
On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:45:09PM +0200, Konrad Meier wrote:
- nanoBTS based The nanoBTS are 200mW only, so we would need a booster. Those cost about 1000 EUR for 6W downlink power + 18dB uplink LNA. Who is going to fund that? Also, we would need a combiner/splitter to run something like a 3-TRX setup.
We have two nanoBTS-Booster 1800 here at the university. If for some reason the Ericsson RBS is not working it should be possible to lend you the two bossters for the time of the camp. We also have a splitter and combiner. I will test the splitter/combiner in combination with a booster at the GPN end of this month.
This is great news. I would be more than happy to accept the offfer, if the Motorola BTS idea doesn't work out. I already have another company that would be able to give us 3 or 4 other booster kits (lna+pa+duplexer+filter) for nanoBTS 1800.
Regards, Harald
Hi Konrad,
On Sun, Jun 05, 2011 at 08:45:09PM +0200, Konrad Meier wrote:
We have two nanoBTS-Booster 1800 here at the university. If for some reason the Ericsson RBS is not working it should be possible to lend you the two bossters for the time of the camp. We also have a splitter and combiner. I will test the splitter/combiner in combination with a booster at the GPN end of this month.
As it turns out, I have not yet managed to get the Motorola BTSs working, despite putting lots of time into it. There are many reasons, but basically the Motorola BSS is _extremely_ different from normal GSM BSS
So while I might still get it to work, I doubt it, and it would be better to pursue different plans now.
We can certainly bring together a sufficient number of nanoBTS units to fill all our ARFCN. The problem now is the coverage <-> capacity problem, i.e. I don't want 6 BTSs with small coverage area, but rather something like 2 or 3 sites (max) with each 2 or 3 BTSs.
Have you meanwhile tested your splitter/combiner/booster setup? does it work?
What I can really easily re-use from the Motorola BTS are 2x hybrid combiner/duplexer units, i.e. something that has the following ports:
* 1 antenna output, bidirectional, 7/16" socket * 2 PA Tx inputs, SMA * 1 Rx antenna output, N-type
So if you don't have a similar setup, we could use those together with two nanoBTS with a Rx LNA and a Rx splitter.
I have six of those hybrid combiner/duplexers.
I _might_ also get the Rx LNA + splitter of the Motorola BTSs to work, but those are less stand-alone and I'm not certain about it.
What do you have in terms of antennas?
Also, when would you be able to provide the equipment to me? I would want to put everything together + test it well ahead of the camp, probably around August 1st.
Does anyone else on this list have any 1800 MHz PA, Mixer, Duplexer, etc. that he would be able to borrow for the Camp GSM network?
Regards, Harald
Hi Harald,
On 16.07.2011 15:51, Harald Welte wrote:
We have two nanoBTS-Booster 1800 here at the university. If for some reason the Ericsson RBS is not working it should be possible to lend you the two bossters for the time of the camp. We also have a splitter and combiner. I will test the splitter/combiner in combination with a booster at the GPN end of this month.
As it turns out, I have not yet managed to get the Motorola BTSs working, despite putting lots of time into it. There are many reasons, but basically the Motorola BSS is _extremely_ different from normal GSM BSS
So while I might still get it to work, I doubt it, and it would be better to pursue different plans now.
We can certainly bring together a sufficient number of nanoBTS units to fill all our ARFCN. The problem now is the coverage<-> capacity problem, i.e. I don't want 6 BTSs with small coverage area, but rather something like 2 or 3 sites (max) with each 2 or 3 BTSs.
Have you meanwhile tested your splitter/combiner/booster setup? does it work?
The original plan was to test the setup at the GPN. But stupid me forgot to order the RJ69 connectors :-( Last week I was finally able to try the multi TRX setup with two nanoBTS, but without success. TRX 0 worked well but TRX 1 was not working for some reason. I think the problem is the initialization of TRX 1. The nanoBTS are pretty new: Equipment_Version='165g029_73' Software_Version='168a352_v142b30d0'
Unfortunately I didn't had the time to investigate the issue further. Maybe tomorrow I have some time.
What I can really easily re-use from the Motorola BTS are 2x hybrid combiner/duplexer units, i.e. something that has the following ports:
- 1 antenna output, bidirectional, 7/16" socket
- 2 PA Tx inputs, SMA
- 1 Rx antenna output, N-type
So if you don't have a similar setup, we could use those together with two nanoBTS with a Rx LNA and a Rx splitter.
I have six of those hybrid combiner/duplexers.
I have two "SPLIT2P-SMA" from "Global Professional" [1]. My Idea was to use these two units with one naoBTS-Booster like shown here: [2]
Your idea sounds good too, but would require some RX LNA.
I _might_ also get the Rx LNA + splitter of the Motorola BTSs to work, but those are less stand-alone and I'm not certain about it.
What do you have in terms of antennas?
We have two omnidirectional antennas from PROCOM: CXL 1800-3 More information: [3]
Also, when would you be able to provide the equipment to me? I would want to put everything together + test it well ahead of the camp, probably around August 1st.
Ok, I will see what I can do.
Best regards Konrad Meier
[1] http://www.globalprofessional.co.uk/acatalog/Splitter_mod.html [2] http://lab.ks.uni-freiburg.de/attachments/download/260/setup.png [3] http://www.procom.dk/eng/Page_menu/Products/Base_Station_Antennas/1.3_-_2.0_...
Hi Konrad,
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:22:19PM +0200, Konrad Meier wrote:
The original plan was to test the setup at the GPN. But stupid me forgot to order the RJ69 connectors :-( Last week I was finally able to try the multi TRX setup with two nanoBTS, but without success. TRX 0 worked well but TRX 1 was not working for some reason. I think the problem is the initialization of TRX 1.
no problem. I have plenty of multi-trx setup experience, I doubt we would have any problem setting that part up at the camp.
I have two "SPLIT2P-SMA" from "Global Professional" [1]. My Idea was to use these two units with one naoBTS-Booster like shown here: [2]
unfortnately this url fails to load: [2] http://lab.ks.uni-freiburg.de/attachments/download/260/setup.png
I can ping the server, and I can connect to port 80, but it never responds to a GET request.
Your idea sounds good too, but would require some RX LNA.
Sylvain seems to have built some uplink LNAs.
We have two omnidirectional antennas from PROCOM: CXL 1800-3 More information: [3]
Ok. I have just ordered a couple of 1.4m long 8dBi gain omni antennas, just in case. I also ordered 50m low-loss cable (20dB on 100m) and 20 matching N plugs. A 500m roll of CAT6 cable for the abis/ip back-haul is here already
Ok, I will see what I can do.
thanks in advance.
Hi Konrad,
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:22:19PM +0200, Konrad Meier wrote:
I have two "SPLIT2P-SMA" from "Global Professional" [1]. My Idea was to use these two units with one naoBTS-Booster like shown here: [2] [2] http://lab.ks.uni-freiburg.de/attachments/download/260/setup.png
Reading that diagram: What ist the "combiner" ? Are you suggesting to use a "SPLIT2P-SMA" for that purpose? I'd strongly discourage, as you would still get a lot of Tx power leakage from nanoBTS1 into the amplifier of nanoBTS2. I doubt that they would like that.
The alternative here really would be to use one of my hybrid combiner/duplexers in place. We simply ignore the Rx path and use it to combine the Tx path of the two BTS before feeding into the amplifier.
We have two omnidirectional antennas from PROCOM: CXL 1800-3 More information: [3]
Also, when would you be able to provide the equipment to me? I would want to put everything together + test it well ahead of the camp, probably around August 1st.
Ok, I will see what I can do.
Has there been any news on this? I think we would definitely like to make use of your 2 nanoBTS boosters, even if we can only use each of them with a single TRX setup.
Regards, Harald
Hi,
Also, when would you be able to provide the equipment to me? I would want to put everything together + test it well ahead of the camp, probably around August 1st.
Ok, I will see what I can do.
Has there been any news on this? I think we would definitely like to make use of your 2 nanoBTS boosters, even if we can only use each of them with a single TRX setup.
I can send you the two boosters end of next week.
Regards Konrad
Hi,
On Saturday 04 June 2011 21:06:01 Harald Welte wrote:
- two antennas, circular, 18 meters above ground
Are you sure that this is possible? (because of the airfield) The Chaoswelle Camp2007 page[0] states that 12m was the maximum antenna/mast height, but that might also be a myth (some chaoswelle guys I asked couldn't remember).
one more thing: We (the ham radio guys from metalab/Vienna in cooperation with Chaoswelle) are planning to do some 2m (144MHz) EME[1] communications.
The path of the moon will be south with pretty low elevation, so our communications path will be almost directly above your heads ;-)
More about the setup on the camp wiki[2], but expect abt. 30dBW PA output. Professional equipment should have no problems with that, however wideband hardware like the WBX, Funcube Dongle etc. might not like it.
- from August 2nd through August 15th, i.e. we have time for build-up and can also run it one more day during shutdown of the camp
We will be there 3-4 Days prior the opening event, if you need some hands for build-up (mechanical/HF/whatever) we'll be glad to help.
regards, Clemens Hopfer, OE1RFC
[0] http://www.chaoswelle.de/Camp2007 (german, look at "Regeln") [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EME_%28communications%29 [2] https://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/wiki/Moonbounce
Hi all!
The camp is getting closer and closer. In the past weeks, folks like Sylvain, Dieter and I were trying desparately to find a good technical solution for running the GSM network at the CCC Camp.
The original intention of using the Motorola Horizon macro BTSs has unfortunately not worked out, despite spending man-weeks of time in exploring and reverse engineering the highly proprietary Motorola variant of GSM. While it has been a fascinating journey in distributed systems, it has not come anywhere close to using the equipment for actual network operation.
The nanoBTSs that we use during the 26C3, 27C3 and other events are too low-power / low-range for the area we want to cover. There are some boosters and LNAs, but we don't have them in the quantity that we anticipate to require (ideally 6TRX).
The BS-11 units we have are higher power but all GSM 900 only, for which we cannot get a license from the regulatory authority.
The Ericsson RBS2308 are higher power and 4TRX, but they are 1900 MHz :/
Luckily, Dieter has recentl done some work for a university of applied sciences in Bavaria. They have obtained some Nokia Metrosite equipment (from O2 Germany, I believe), and Dieter is helping them with OpenBSC support for it.
So just in time, Dieter has managed to get them working _plus_ the university thankfully has agreed to borrow them the two units for the camp. One of them is 2TRX, the other is 3TRX. They have integrated duplexers but no combiners, i.e. we need one Antenna for each TRX. Each of the TRX has 5W output power.
I have ordered some nice 140cm long omnidirectional 8dBi gain antennas as well as cable that will only produce 2dB loss over the estimated 10m that we have to cover.
The back-haul to the BSC will be classic E1 based.
All equipment should be at my place around August 1st. I'm planning to slowly build the network starting from August 3rd onwards. This depends a bit on when we will have electrical power in the shelters where the units are to be located, and when the museum will have the telescope antenna poles ready for us.
The license permits us operating from August 3rd onwards, so we can do coverage testing and the like as soon as the BTSs (or even only one of them) is operational.
It would be great to know who will be able to give me a hand with the build-up starting from which day/time on.
Regards, Harald
Hi,
It would be great to know who will be able to give me a hand with the build-up starting from which day/time on.
I'm should be there on the 9th, mid afternoon. (landing at TXL at 13h20).
A bit late I guess, I should have booked a flight a couple of days earlier ... But if there is anything left to do then, I'm happy to help.
Cheers,
Sylvain
Hi Sylvain,
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 12:09:55AM +0200, Sylvain Munaut wrote:
It would be great to know who will be able to give me a hand with the build-up starting from which day/time on.
I'm should be there on the 9th, mid afternoon. (landing at TXL at 13h20).
ok.
A bit late I guess, I should have booked a flight a couple of days earlier
don't worry. Peter is in Berlin and is available to help even from the 3rd onwards. Depending on factors like power, pole availability, ... we might even delay the start to the 5th. I think our biggest challenges will not really be GSM related but mechanical, like cabling, plugs, safely putting the units to the side of the shelters, mechanically mounting the antennas, etc.
Also, as we don't use any external LNA, PA, Duplexer, Combiner, the setup is extremely simple on the RF side, too...
... But if there is anything left to do then, I'm happy to help.
I think there will be quite a bit of operations + maintenance and possibly bugfixing during the camp...
Hi all,
this is hopefully the last and final update before the Camp.
I'm happy that we now have the license and all the equipment required.
Please check http://openbsc.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/CCC_Camp_2011 for the current plan.
Special thanks to Dieter Spaar for his effort to support the Nokia Metrosite in OpenBSC on very short advance notice.
(More thanks on http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/wiki/GSM)
Regards, Harald
-
Clemens Hopfer -
Harald Welte -
Konrad Meier -
Sylvain Munaut