[cross-post to many lists, please follow-up-to openbsc@lists.osmocom.org]
Dear all,
time is flying, and I would like to start early with discussions and planning about OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon in 2018. It helps to start early.
Side note: We have some pending issues about the events from last year at http://osmocom.org/projects/osmo-dev-con/issues - I've incorporated them in the text below.
== OsmoDevCon ==
For OsmoDevCon, I think it's easy: We keep it as-is. Same procedure as every year, which means: * same venue, same catering options * same concept of 'anyone contributing to Osmocom can apply for registration until all seats are taken' * same idea of inviting some few speaker[s] doing other FOSS mobile communications work to join us
The parts that we need to change, IMHO:
* don't reduce from 4 to 3 days like last year. Have full 4 days again * sort topics per day / half-day, i.e. have "GSM/UMTS Cellular Infrastructure" days for BTS/BSC/NITB/MSC/HLR/SGSN/GGSN & Co, but then have other days for other projects. This would enable people not interested in the [continued evolvement] of the cellular projects be able to skip those days, or to simply meet in an adjacent room for parallel hacking sessions/discussions * try to be a bit more structured with the schedule in general. The existing approach works for people who attend all the event all day long, but not so well for people with other plans / limited time
Any further change requests or topics to discuss?
Please note that Pablo Neira has offered to kindly host an OsmoDevCon in Seville (Spain). I've attended a number of netfilter workshops he organized there, and he's doing a great job! However, given the large number of attendees from Berlin (and Germany in general), I think this would make things more complicated, and more expensive for most attendees. If you disagree with that assessment: I'm open for having the discussion, I just thought it's more practical/economic to do it in Berlin.
=== 10 year Anniversary Party ===
Given that 2018 marks the 10 year anniversary of Dieter and me hacking with the Siemens BS-11 in 2008, I think the 2018 incarnation deserves some special celebration of some form. I have no concrete idea yet, but for sure we should so something, and it should be at/around OsmoDevCon. And for sure we should have a BS-11 around :)
== OsmoCon ==
The public OsmoCon was welcomed and was a success. However, let's start this discussion with a review of last years event.
=== Registration ===
* Registrations came in way too late. Two weeks ahead of the event, we were considering to cancel it. And then within the last few days, we had to turn people down due to limited seating capacity
* To make planning more reliable, we see on other option but to significantly raise the registration fee combined with an equally significant discount for early booking
=== Duration ===
* Many people requested multiple days rather than just one, in order to make more out of (long distance) travels. This is obvious, but as we had no idea how many people would attend at all (or if we have to cancel due to lack of attendance), planning multiple days in the first incarnation would have been high risk and a multitude of work
* I would suggest to expand to two or even three days this week, possibly one days with tutorials and the other day with tech talks
* Slightly less crammed schedule due to multiple days
=== Venue ===
We recognize this yearso venue was not the best option, due to * Bad ventilation in the basemenet * Difficult to find * No space next to the conference room where people can meet / hang out in parallel to talks (not everyone attends every talk)
I still like the "understatement" of the venue. I'd prefer any hostel / non-profit / hackerspace / university over luxurious hotels any time. Going to an expensive venue means more or less automatically more expensive ticket fees, which again is more likely to exclude pure community members without a commercial activity related to Osmocom.
So any future venue would ideally:
* be able to hold slightly more people than this year * have a second room or large lobby in which people can meet for extended coffee breaks in parallel to some talks, as needed * be slightly easier to find (and we have to put up some signs outside and in the lobby) * have better WiFi and/or wired connectivity
=== Programme / Format ===
* less crammed over multiple days * some more "interactive" formats were requested, for users to provide feedback to developers * there was some discussion about topics / speakers in redmine last year, but not too much participation [until it was too late]. * I'd suggest a more formal CfP process with a submission deadline that allows us to publish a preliminary schedule long ahead of the event
=== Video Recordings ===
I think they were a big success, and it was a very big surprise that the CCC Video Operations Center was volunteering to help such a small and niche-interest event like OsmoCon. We should make sure that we can repeat this for 2018.
== Dates / Frequency ==
Having OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon back to back becomes somewhat long, if OsmoCon is 2-3 days and OsmoDevCon is 4 days. Basically we're looking at a full week for those of you who would like to attend both events. But then, I think the number of people attending both events is actually not all that big. Without checking the details, I think not more than half of the OsmoDevCon attendees were attending OsmoCon. I would expect that tendency to remain or even increase.
I still think it's good to keep them back-to-back.
In terms of frequency, I would actually suggest we move to a 6-month cycle rather than a 12-month cycle. There's a lot of development going on at all time. I understand that not everyone is able to attend two events just on Osmocom, especially if it's a spare time / hobby type activity. That's ok, I think there's no problem with attending either of the two only, and catching up by video recordings and/or mail on the other.
The qeustion is: Should that second event be developer-oriented or user-oriented? Or again both? Any comments here?
Ok, that was a somewhat lengthy e-mail. Please make sure to provide any feedback you may have as early as possible, to increase the chances of your feedback being reflected in the planning.
Happy hacking, Harald
On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 08:01:40AM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
- same venue, same catering options
Maybe we can improve the table situation -- in the main conference room, that oval table by the sofa corner takes up a lot of space, so that it can be hard to pass between the tables. If we could get smaller tabkle or tables and maybe leave the oval one in the smaller room, we'd have more space to cross the room as well as have a second room to sit in?
- have better WiFi and/or wired connectivity
Air to breathe, clean water and internet!
=== Video Recordings ===
We should make sure that we can repeat this for 2018.
No doubt, that was super excellent. I could also show my family what we're up to :)
== Dates / Frequency ==
Having OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon back to back becomes somewhat long, if OsmoCon is 2-3 days and OsmoDevCon is 4 days.
I still think it's good to keep them back-to-back.
For me personally, being away from home early morning until late at night, including the semi compulsory diner, for seven days in a row is a challenge. Usually I feel that I should be present all of the time, but if it's seven full days back to back I think I'd need to take some time off here and there. I'm also expected to make up for offloading parenting responsibilites during the event, so it seems a lot to extend OsmoCon by two days *and* add another OsmoDevCon day. Three more days without a break?
OTOH I welcome more time to sprinkle some open socialising between talks, not having to hush almost all conversations because the next talk is starting. For long journeys taken to attend, it can be more convenient to not have to wait a day between the events. But for being a tourist in Berlin, a day off in between isn't that much either? What do travellers think about a day off halfway thru? For me, being based in Berlin, that would be very convenient; I accept that most others may differ... do you?
The qeustion is: Should that second event be developer-oriented or user-oriented? Or again both? Any comments here?
My intuition is that once a year is plenty for a user oriented event with talks. Two user based events a year may encourage attendants to spread over the two events and thin out / not meet each other?
I imagine that offering workshops for smallish groups of users apart from a larger event would make sense any time, as users may request them. We could offer a dudle to coordinate good dates to hold workshops [1].
For hackers to meet, the more the better I guess.
~N
Hi Neels,
On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 08:24:26PM +0200, Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
Maybe we can improve the table situation -- in the main conference room, that oval table by the sofa corner takes up a lot of space, so that it can be hard to pass between the tables. If we could get smaller tabkle or tables and maybe leave the oval one in the smaller room, we'd have more space to cross the room as well as have a second room to sit in?
This has been a bottleneck for years, but in terms of tables we have to stick with what the venue has, or we have to arrange for logistics of transporting bulky objects around. Maybe we could see if there are some suitably foldable conference tables, and then buy them + donate them to IN-Berlin (so we can use them each year, and they can be stored meanwhile without using up too much space. Do you want to investigate that option, together with Heike + IN-Berlin?
== Dates / Frequency ==
Having OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon back to back becomes somewhat long, if OsmoCon is 2-3 days and OsmoDevCon is 4 days.
I still think it's good to keep them back-to-back.
For me personally, being away from home early morning until late at night, including the semi compulsory diner, for seven days in a row is a challenge.
I fully understand that. But then, the question is whether you'd need to be present all times. As indicated, for OsmoDevCon I would want to split the "cellular infrastructure" talks on some days and the other topics like satellite/sdr/... on some other days. So the 4 days would become two days.
Usually I feel that I should be present all of the time, but if it's seven full days back to back I think I'd need to take some time off here and there. I'm also expected to make up for offloading parenting responsibilites during the event, so it seems a lot to extend OsmoCon by two days *and* add another OsmoDevCon day. Three more days without a break?
OsmoDevCon clearly needs to get back the one day it lost this year. At least that was my feeling. Do others agree?
More day[s] for OsmoCon was a clear request from many attendees.
OTOH I welcome more time to sprinkle some open socialising between talks, not having to hush almost all conversations because the next talk is starting. For long journeys taken to attend, it can be more convenient to not have to wait a day between the events. But for being a tourist in Berlin, a day off in between isn't that much either? What do travellers think about a day off halfway thru?
I'll leave it to the non-Berlin-local folks to comment to that.
In general, I think the amount of overlap in terms of attendance would nto be too big. So maybe *not* having it back-to-back is actually a good idea?
My intuition is that once a year is plenty for a user oriented event with talks.
See my other mail. I think the amount of user-visible changes we're introducing in the last months has prompted me to think about it.
Two user based events a year may encourage attendants to spread over the two events and thin out / not meet each other?
possibly.
I imagine that offering workshops for smallish groups of users apart from a larger event would make sense any time, as users may request them. We could offer a dudle to coordinate good dates to hold workshops [1].
Yes, or simply do some web/screencast or whatever form of "online only" update every few months. "Migrating from NITB to BSC+MSC+HLR" would be a very good first topic currently, I suppose :)
For hackers to meet, the more the better I guess.
Ok, then let's aim for two OsmoDevCon's next year.
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 06:27:35PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
Ok, then let's aim for two OsmoDevCon's next year.
One in week 23, one in week 42 ;)
Reflecting on that, let's ask:
Who would / would not like to attend a second OsmoDevCon, generally? It's not a problem really to have two smaller events, would just be interesting to know if we would likely see everyone at both or not.
~N
On 16/10/2017 07:13, Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
Who would / would not like to attend a second OsmoDevCon, generally?
It really depends on where I end up living.
Let me say though, that if I knew there was just one OsmoDevCon in April, then I would really try to avoid other commitments for those dates. However, if I had the option to choose between two, that might make a difference, in allowing me to choose one.
Attending the Devcon has helped me greatly to "onboard" as a beginner-developer ;-) and I think there is a lot more of that going to be happening going forward, so other restrictions aside, I would attend two.
On 14/10/2017 01:01, Harald Welte wrote:
Please note that Pablo Neira has offered to kindly host an OsmoDevCon in Seville (Spain). I've attended a number of netfilter workshops he organized there, and he's doing a great job! However, given the large number of attendees from Berlin (and Germany in general), I think this would make things more complicated, and more expensive for most attendees. If you disagree with that assessment: I'm open for having the discussion, I just thought it's more practical/economic to do it in Berlin.
Yes, certainly for OsmoDevCon, Seville would mean travel and expense for most. But how about the OsmoCon (assuming the decision was not to have them back-to-back)? I imagine that would mean a LOT more logistics work there, maybe too much, like bringing CCC VOC for example. Were there to be any interest however, I tentatively raise a hand to help out, including travelling pre event to Seville.
=== 10 year Anniversary Party ===
Given that 2018 marks the 10 year anniversary of Dieter and me hacking with the Siemens BS-11 in 2008,
:-)
== OsmoCon ==
In terms of frequency, I would actually suggest we move to a 6-month cycle rather than a 12-month cycle.
Are you suggesting here to as an alternative to the back-to-back OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon, to separate them with a six month interval? Or just to have an OsmoCon every six months?
Hi Keith,
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:48:49AM -0500, Keith wrote:
Yes, certainly for OsmoDevCon, Seville would mean travel and expense for most. But how about the OsmoCon (assuming the decision was not to have them back-to-back)?
Possible, but I'm not sure if Pablo was volunteering for a significantly larger event: OsmoCon was 60 people this year, so I would expect it to be at least that same size next year.
I imagine that would mean a LOT more logistics work there, maybe too much, like bringing CCC VOC for example.
Indeed.
In terms of frequency, I would actually suggest we move to a 6-month cycle rather than a 12-month cycle.
Are you suggesting here to as an alternative to the back-to-back OsmoCon and OsmoDevCon, to separate them with a six month interval? Or just to have an OsmoCon every six months?
I'm open to all suggestions. But indeed, for OsmoDevCon I think a 6 month cycle would be great - maybe at the very least for people involvd in those projects with lots of development activity, such as currently Osmo{BTS,PCU,BSC,MSC,MGW,STP,GGSN,HLR}.
For OsmoCon: Annual schedule is probably sufficient. Nevetheless, there's a lot of user-visible changes happening with the NITB-split, so this year it would actually have made sense to do some updates.
But as (I believe) Neels suggested, we could always propose something like a workshop / tutorial and see if people are interested in that. Such tutorials could actually also be a "webcast" or the like, without physcial attendance. This would remove the burden of travel and the venue organization bits on our side.
Regards, Harald
Hi Harald,
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 06:18:44PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote: [...]
On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 10:48:49AM -0500, Keith wrote:
Yes, certainly for OsmoDevCon, Seville would mean travel and expense for most. But how about the OsmoCon (assuming the decision was not to have them back-to-back)?
Possible, but I'm not sure if Pablo was volunteering for a significantly larger event: OsmoCon was 60 people this year, so I would expect it to be at least that same size next year.
We can do this here too. I can find someone here - I promise it won't be me - to volunteer to make cost estimations that we can deliver to you asap, so you get an idea on whether this will be more expensive or cheaper. Even if this is not organized this time, it can be useful in the future to start moving the conference around Europe.
If flight costs are important, we would need to make a few questions though, there are things like rough flight cost estimations that we would like to make, so statistics on city/country of origin of people that will attend may be useful.
No need to make it this time if it's too tight, we can very much likely offer this later on.
I imagine that would mean a LOT more logistics work there, maybe too much, like bringing CCC VOC for example.
Indeed.
Video recording should not be a problem here, if there's anything else to take into account, let me know!
Thanks.
On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:28:34AM +0200, Pablo Neira Ayuso wrote:
Even if this is not organized this time, it can be useful in the future to start moving the conference around Europe.
From my own selfish viewpoint I so far really enjoy that everyone else is travelling to my home town for Osmo*Con, and it kind of matches the CCC related origins of Osmocom ... no real strong point against it I guess ;)
~N
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Harald Welte -
Keith -
Neels Hofmeyr -
Pablo Neira Ayuso