4 Mar
2018
4 Mar
'18
11:09 p.m.
Hi Leif --
Thanks for the reply, and for the pointer to your page! I will look at
that very closely.
The purpose of my tests is for using dongles with the CW Skimmer
software which takes an input bandwidth of 192 kHz.
I'm looking at 192 kHz of spectrum in a 1024 bin FFT, so that's 187.5 Hz
per bin. Trying to understand what you said below, is it correct that I
should view the bin width as the equivalent of the receive bandwidth for
MDS purposes? And that therefore there would be processing gain of
about 30 dB (division by 1024)? That would bring my measurements into
the range of theory.
For what it's worth, attached is an animation I did showing the abrupt
onset of spurs when the ADC overload point is reached, in this case at
-57 dBm with "rf gain" set to 37.2. (If the listserv deletes this, let
me know and I'll send it to you privately.)
Thanks!
73,
John
----
On 03/04/2018 11:56 AM, Leif Asbrink wrote:
Hi John,
For an approximation of the minimum discernable
signal (MDS) I adjust
the signal generator amplitude until I see a noticeable signal that is
consistently just above the noise. To find the overload point, I
increase the amplitude until I see the first spur appear -- it's a very
sudden transition, with a 1 dB amplitude increase triggering spurs many
dB above the noise.
Based on the assumptions in my earlier message, I would expect to see a
dynamic range of about 59 dB (~50 dB from 8 bits at 1.536 Msps, plus 9
dB processing gain by the decimate-by-8).
No, you are measuring noise in a much
narrower bandwidth.
"until I see a noticeable signal" implicates that you look at
a spectrum of some kind. If I assume your bin resolution is
19.2 Hz you have another 40 dB higher dynamic range.
You might be interested in this:
http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/hware/rtlsdr/rtlsdr-03.40.htm
However, I'm seeing closer to 100 dB dynamic
range -- for example, with
the RF gain set to 20 dB, the MDS is -124 dBm and the overload level is
25 dBm. This tracks for various settings of the RF gain, though there
seems to be a few dB of compression with gains above 30 dB.
MDS in what bandwidth?
In amateur radio it is usually 500 Hz
which, if you adhere to that means you found the noise floor
at -151 dBm/Hz. That is 23 dB from room temperature (-174 dBm/Hz)
so your noise figure would be 23 dB.
With overload at -25 dBm (typo?) your range would be 126 dBm/Hz
or 99 dB in a 500 Hz bandwidth. That is not really true however
because you would have to measure the noise floor while there
is a strong signal present and reciprocal mixing would set the
limit. On the other hand, if the strong signal is at 90 MHz
it would not reach the ADC so performance would be determined by
the tuner chip.
Regards
Leif
>
> I'm trying to understand this discrepancy, which could be the result of:
>
> 1. Some AGC operation or gain compression in the R820T2 tuner chip;
>
> 2. My assumptions about the internal sample rate bit depth or
> decimation being wrong; or
>
> 3. My math being wrong (for example, is there a log10 vs. log20 error
> in my dB calculations, or is the dB scaling in the FFT showing voltage
> rather than power?).
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> John
> ----
> On 03/02/2018 09:46 AM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
>> Hi --
>>
>> I'm trying to understand the sampling and decimation structure of the
>> RTL-SDR dongle, to work out the effective number of bits after decimation.
>>
>> From Google and looking at the librtlsdr code (which is beyond my
>> programming depth), I think I've figured out the following. I'd much
>> appreciate verification/correction/amplification.
>>
>> 1. Actual ADC in the RTL-2832U is a single-bit sigma-delta running at
>> some very high rate.
>>
>> 2. This is converted to 28.8 msps at 8 bit depth.
>>
>> 3. 28.8 msps is downsampled to the rate requested by the user and sent
>> over the USB bus as 8 bit unsigned IQ pairs.
>>
>> Based on that, I *think*:
>>
>> a. Any processing gain in the downsample from 28.8 msps/8 bits within
>> the chip is lost because the wire samples are limited to 8 bits. The
>> output is 8 bits dynamic range regardless of the sample rate set.
>>
>> b. THEREFORE... for best dynamic range one wants to set the RTL-2832U
>> to the highest sample rate that avoids lost samples, and do further
>> decimation in the host processor, where the added bits aren't lost on
>> the wire.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any verification or correction of that analysis.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John 