Hello Sebastien,
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:04:07 +0100, "=?UTF-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien_Lorquet?=" squalyl@gmail.com wrote:
I know that smart card EEPROMS are rated for 100k writes, but I would not rely on that. In fact, this depends on how often is the EF.Kc file written, which was my original question. Every 30 seconds or every day? Every day is of course OK.
It is only written if an AUTHENTICATION REQUEST from the network is performed. This usually happens when the phone is turned on and does a location update. The network can also perform an AUTHENTICATION REQUEST when doing a call or similar things, however usually this is not done every time and the previous Kc stored on the SIM is reused as Sylvain explained it. For OpenBSC and OpenBTS the default is that there is no AUTHENTICATION REQUEST at all, so no Kc is written (I am not 100% sure if this is true for OpenBTS, but I guess so).
Additionally, how often are these other files written (LOCI, BCCH) ?
They are written when a location update is done or the cell changes. However it depends on the phone if the data is really written to the SIM every time, sometimes the phone caches those data and writes them to the SIM only when the phone is turned off. For OpenBSC and OpenBTS writing should not happen that often because there is usually only one cell with fixed parameters. And I guess you will probably not actually write to the EEPROM if the same data is already stored (or a least the Card OS should do it this way).
SmartCardFocus has a ID0 cutting service, that can turn any card into a SIM sized module: http://www.smartcardfocus.com/shop/ilp/id~82/p/index.shtml This is the best option I know so far.
Thanks, I did not know that. It would be interesting to know what tool they use and if it is available for a reasonable price.
However for devel purposes, as layer 2-3 will be developed on a PC, most people will need/use a PCSC reader and a normal sized card. Any javacard will do, even dual interface cards such as JCOP31 or Cosmo or older Cyberflex. my applet will have no specific requirement on javacard support, JC 2.1.x or 2.2.x will do.
Yes, sure.
Best regards, Dieter
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Dieter Spaar spaar@mirider.augusta.dewrote:
Hello Sebastien,
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:04:07 +0100, "=?UTF-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien_Lorquet?=" < squalyl@gmail.com> wrote:
I know that smart card EEPROMS are rated for 100k writes, but I would not rely on that. In fact, this depends on how often is the EF.Kc file
written,
which was my original question. Every 30 seconds or every day? Every day
is
of course OK.
It is only written if an AUTHENTICATION REQUEST from the network is performed. This usually happens when the phone is turned on and does a location update. The network can also perform an AUTHENTICATION REQUEST when doing a call or similar things, however usually this is not done every time and the previous Kc stored on the SIM is reused as Sylvain explained it. For OpenBSC and OpenBTS the default is that there is no AUTHENTICATION REQUEST at all, so no Kc is written (I am not 100% sure if this is true for OpenBTS, but I guess so).
Additionally, how often are these other files written (LOCI, BCCH) ?
They are written when a location update is done or the cell changes. However it depends on the phone if the data is really written to the SIM every time, sometimes the phone caches those data and writes them to the SIM only when the phone is turned off. For OpenBSC and OpenBTS writing should not happen that often because there is usually only one cell with fixed parameters. And I guess you will probably not actually write to the EEPROM if the same data is already stored (or a least the Card OS should do it this way).
OK, I will neglect this part for the moment and implement them as regular files. If it happens that the update rate is really a danger for the card eeprom, I'll implement a log structured file type.
SmartCardFocus has a ID0 cutting service, that can turn any card into a SIM
sized module:
This is the best option I know so far.
Thanks, I did not know that. It would be interesting to know what tool
they use and if it is available for a reasonable price.
Seems to be 1.20 EUR per card. Two options: either they may have a small punching tool, and do that by themselves, or they may have a subcontractor with a big laser cutter or a CNC or something else... There were impressive machines at the Cartes Salon, I would not be surprised if they had a supplier with a monster to do that.
Sebastien
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 11:26:05AM +0100, Sébastien Lorquet wrote:
SmartCardFocus has a ID0 cutting service, that can turn any card into a SIM sized module: http://www.smartcardfocus.com/shop/ilp/id~82/p/index.shtml This is the best option I know so far.
Seems to be 1.20 EUR per card. Two options: either they may have a small punching tool, and do that by themselves, or they may have a subcontractor with a big laser cutter or a CNC or something else... There were impressive machines at the Cartes Salon, I would not be surprised if they had a supplier with a monster to do that.
There are big machines for professional/industrial ID-0 card punching, I've seen them on alibaba.com and other chinese trading sites a number of times. Unfortunately a bit too large for our purpose.
As for a laser cutter solution: Roh, I believe your Berlin hackerspace Raumfahrtagentur now has a laser cutter. Is this one capable of cutting through the smartcard plastic? If yes, that could be an inexpensive solution at least for the German OsmocomBB / OpenBSC hackers...
Cheers, Harald
Harald Welte wrote:
There are big machines for professional/industrial ID-0 card punching, I've seen them on alibaba.com and other chinese trading sites a number of times. Unfortunately a bit too large for our purpose.
i think there were 'pliers' like cutting tools when we moved from fullsize to id-0 size. currently i could only find the kind of pliers to 'put 2 sims into a dualsim-adapter'
As for a laser cutter solution: Roh, I believe your Berlin hackerspace Raumfahrtagentur now has a laser cutter. Is this one capable of cutting through the smartcard plastic? If yes, that could be an inexpensive solution at least for the German OsmocomBB / OpenBSC hackers...
we could cut through it without any problems i guess, but such plastic cards are usually made from PVC which contains chlorine, which sadly is a really bad idea to use a laser cutter on (generates chlorine gas) since it can not only damage humans but supposedly also the machine.
but if we cannot find a source for the 'cutting pliers' style equipment.. we got a cnc mill also, and could use that to make some kind of metal stamp kit.
what do you guys think? i would say: lets have some working sim code first and use some pair of scissors for cutting the sim till we need to stamp out volume ;) just print out some alignment-help on paper, glue it to the back of the chipcard with doublesided tape or spray-on and use paper-scissors. its only thin pvc and gives nicer edges than the cutter only. just be careful not to bend the chip but the rest of the card.
regards
--
roh
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Hi all.
Where is the problem? Just cut it - its thin plastic ;-)
regards. Philipp
I was doubtful. So I just tried with an old contactless card whose antenna was dead.
The resut is near perfect. Use an ohp pen to draw the outline, use cissors, profit! That's a matter of 2 minutes.
It's not worth 1.20€ as marketed by SmartCardFocus.
I can make an instructable like wiki page this evening.
Sebastien
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:23 PM, dexter zero-kelvin@gmx.de wrote:
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Hi all.
Where is the problem? Just cut it - its thin plastic ;-)
regards. Philipp
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Hi Dexter,
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 01:23:38PM +0100, dexter wrote:
Where is the problem? Just cut it - its thin plastic ;-)
it works for one or two cards for personal use, sure. But what if we e.g. want to hand out our own SIM cards at an event like a CCC congress or HAR2009 ? In that case, we would have to cut hundreds of cards manually, not a really great exercise. I personally like roh's proposal for using the CNC to create our own punching tool sooner or later.
However, of course, once again agreeing with roh: We first need a working implementation of the SIM card that can work on inexpensive cards like funcard.
Regards, Harald
Hello,
* Harald Welte laforge@gnumonks.org [2010-03-17 14:48]:
e.g. want to hand out our own SIM cards at an event like a CCC congress or HAR2009 ? In that case, we would have to cut hundreds of cards manually, not a really great exercise. I personally like roh's proposal for using the CNC to create our own punching tool sooner or later.
what do you think about this tool: http://www.magicsim.com/cn/sim/uploadfile/2006721201153668.GIF
An other question: Is it not possible to buy SIM cards finish cutted?
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Benjamin Hagemann benny@benny.de wrote:
Hello,
- Harald Welte laforge@gnumonks.org [2010-03-17 14:48]:
e.g. want to hand out our own SIM cards at an event like a CCC congress or HAR2009 ? In that case, we would have to cut hundreds of cards manually, not a really great exercise. I personally like roh's proposal for using the CNC to create our own punching tool sooner or later.
what do you think about this tool: http://www.magicsim.com/cn/sim/uploadfile/2006721201153668.GIF
This tool is awesome! It would save a lot of time!
An other question: Is it not possible to buy SIM cards finish cutted?
It's more difficult that finding plain cards.
I just "invented" a device that should be quite easy to build from DIY store parts. Do you understand the "schematic" . operation is as follows:
-a wood block with an indentation that holds a full card in place. -two covers (wood blocks) with cutter blades that can be rotated so that the blades cut the card with pressure. I did not find a way to arrange four blades in a rectangle, so the cut can be done in two steps. Two tools can be built, each one with a task, so that one people makes the first cuts, while a second one can make the other cuts. The result is a small rectangle, the edge can be cut easily with a third step with a blade at 45° or with cissors.
Just my vapor-hardware for today...
Building ideas:
blades: http://www.garveyproducts.com/images/40475%20Blade.jpg http://www.woojinblade.com/images/product/Snap-off-Cutter.jpg (seems light to cut a card with pressure only, but worth a try.)
hinges: http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11415780/2_Ball_Bearing_Butt_Hinge.jpg
These can be found everywhere I think.
Sebastien
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 04:36:42PM +0100, Benjamin Hagemann wrote:
Hello,
- Harald Welte laforge@gnumonks.org [2010-03-17 14:48]:
e.g. want to hand out our own SIM cards at an event like a CCC congress or HAR2009 ? In that case, we would have to cut hundreds of cards manually, not a really great exercise. I personally like roh's proposal for using the CNC to create our own punching tool sooner or later.
what do you think about this tool: http://www.magicsim.com/cn/sim/uploadfile/2006721201153668.GIF
this is a tool for punching holes in cards that are already ID-0 size. Those can be found everywhere, but it's not what we want.
An other question: Is it not possible to buy SIM cards finish cutted?
you can, but either not freely programmable SIM cards, or only for very high sample prices.
So you get either ID0 size, XOR inexpensive XOR freely programmable, but never all three of them.
Harald Welte wrote:
So you get either ID0 size, XOR inexpensive XOR freely programmable, but never all three of them.
Another idea could be to remove chip+contacts from an inexpensive AND freely programmable large card, and glue that onto ID0 size plastic.
Somehow dissolve the glue on the big card. Epoxy should be covering the chip so it won't be damaged easily even if the card is in an environment which renders the glue (not epoxy) useless.
//Peter
Not sure it will work easily, chips have different size and shapes. You may have to do surgical operations within the card thickness :) No to mention the glue strength: to unglue it, then to remove the old glue from the ID0 card.
Sebastien
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se wrote:
Harald Welte wrote:
So you get either ID0 size, XOR inexpensive XOR freely programmable, but never all three of them.
Another idea could be to remove chip+contacts from an inexpensive AND freely programmable large card, and glue that onto ID0 size plastic.
Somehow dissolve the glue on the big card. Epoxy should be covering the chip so it won't be damaged easily even if the card is in an environment which renders the glue (not epoxy) useless.
//Peter
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