On 06/21/2019 01:01 PM, Harald Welte wrote:

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

...

One of the bigger questions is about having a tent as well as some tables/benches to sit on and work. The Camp orga team nas been negotiating rates with a tent rental company, but to be honest I'm rather surprised by the extremely steep pricing. The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR. I'm not sure we want to raise that amount of money? Even if we'd be 10 people sharing it, its still 82.50 EUR per person. And that excludes any tables/chairs.

FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:

• Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
• Price includes buildup and teardown.
• As we need to check every order with our contractor for availability, please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.

Does anyone recall how big the tent was from last camp? How much was it?

Philip

Hi Harald,

• I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly less but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional wooden floor, 180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).

Is that for the same size tent ? Also I guess that doesn't include any table/chairs right ?

I don't think we ever had wooden floor at previous events.

I know we handled shipping / build-up / tear-down ourselves, but obviously that require someone with the means to transport that and time for build / tear-down. I get on site on the 20th (~ midday) and leave on the 25th evening if that helps.

1. an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large "hack tent", or

Definitely not. I mean, I think the whole point of the camp is to get together and work/hack on stuff. Without a good place to set down that makes it difficult.

2. an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to contribute up to EUR XXX, or

3. an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd have to contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

I'm good with either of those options. And as for the XXX, I think anything less than 100 EUR is reasonable for me. Unfortunately coming by plane, I can't really bring much "infrastructure" with me. So I definitely wouldn't mind be part of singularity city and have someone else handle the logistics. I think it might just depend on how many people we are and if they can accept us without being crowded :p

Cheers,

Sylvain

Hi Harald,

сб, 22 июн. 2019 г. в 20:00, Alexander Couzens wrote:

I don't see any sense in splitting up the osmocom and camp gsm team.

I also don't see any reason to have a separate Village, TBH. Nobody has explained so far what is planned to be there:

- hardware (SIMTrace, osmo-clck-gen, etc.) workshops? - GNU Radio (gr-iridium, gr-gsm) workshops? - or just another place to seat? ;)

Or was it suggested as a place for Osmocom community members, who are not involved in the 2-3-4G network organization?

How much room will we have at the Camp GSM Village?

With best regards, Vadim Yanitskiy.

Hi everyone,

first of: from the choices presented, singularity sounds best. I don't know whether I'd even have the privilege to join that, tbh.

Mainly:

Considering I've been benefiting from spatial vicinity to osmocom very much last camp, I feel like I should be contributing here.

So let me offer the following:

I can see how it's desirable to have someone deliver, build and remove a robust tent, if one's simply restricted in the amount of time and transport one can contribute.

I could be coming in on the 20th arriving earliest at ca 17:00 from Karlsruhe driving (I think) a rented Berlingo or similar.

Honestly, if that doesn't feel too sketchy, I could pick up a couple of standard pavillon things [1] on the way, and bring enough rope, zip ties, and tape to make that work in all but the harshest weather. That'd cost 5€/m² of "roofed area". Rough estimate: 6 seats per pavillon, if we put tabling in the middle, i.e. single-digit euros in tent costs pP. I'd probably go for three pavillons in total.

The real problem I'd see is table space, and seating. We could go for pasting tables (hopefully, this is how you'd translate /Tapeziertische/)[2]. That'd amount to ca 17€/m, and I'd assume about a meter would be a good amount of personal freedom. I considered that particular table due to the fact that it's not having annoying diagonal beams to support it from below.

Seating is a bit problematic: the camping chair is a bit too comfortable (yes, that's possible) to work at desk height. I honestly have no idea how to address that; any car that I could reasonably rent to drive ~1500km wouldn't have space for beer tent benches, and I don't know how desirable it is to pack and bring standard chairs. What I can offer is to take orders for IKEA Gunde (6€, [3]), which are notoriously not insanely annoying to carry.

Maybe we could rent tables and chairs locally, but I'd assume they'd require us to provide safe/clean flooring if we want to do that. Also, at this point, one simply can't (or even know the prices of doing so).

One thing, though: I don't want to produce a couple of tables, a few pavillons, and folding chairs in waste. So, we'd ideally come up with a plan for what to do with the gathered infra after camp. That could involve storing some at my or someone else's place, communal space or donating it to someone who can put it to sensible use.

So, worst case common cost calculation:

Item | Cost | Count | Total ------------------+------+-------+------ Pavillon 9m² | 35 | 3 | 105 Table 3m | 50 | 4(?)| 200 Tarp & Tape | 50 | 1 | 50 ------------------+------+-------+------ SUM 355

Seating would be per buttocks. So, let's say, 15 people (I have no idea how many would want to participate), that'd make p.P.

Item | Cost | Count | Total ------------------+------+-------+------ IKEA Gunde | 6 | 1 | 6 Partial infrastr. | 355 | 1/15 | 24 ------------------+------+-------+------ SUM 30

As you can guess, I think the interesting part here is less the fact that we'd be saving a bit of money, it's that it takes Harald's (and other's) minds of getting a dry place to work, by making me (and maybe Jan, haven't asked him) do the shopping, money handling, most of the setup (obviously, nobody minds help with that), whilst still maintaining a lot of freedom.

Hope this helps anyone.

Best regards, Marcus

[1] e.g. https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Pavillon-Mana-3x3x2-5-m-Polyester-110-g-m/62327... [2] e.g. https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Multifunktionstisch-3tlg-300-x-60-cm-hoehenvers... [3] https://www.ikea.com/de/de/p/gunde-klappstuhl-weiss-60217799/

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 10:51 +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

Dear all,

Further updates:

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 07:01:09PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

...

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

...

pricing. The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR. I'm not sure we want to raise that amount of money? Even if we'd be 10 people sharing it, its still 82.50 EUR per person. And that excludes any tables/chairs.

FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:

• Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
• Price includes buildup and teardown.
• As we need to check every order with our contractor for

availability, please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.

• I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly

less but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional wooden floor, 180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).

• I was in touch with Jan from stratum0, which is the hackerspace

organizing the "singularity city". There are various (german) details available at https://singularitycity.de/ and https://singularitycity.de/kosten.html. They will organize a large 8x12m tent, plus kitchen tent, plus another one for workshops, refrigeration for drinks, breakfast buffet, power distribution, lighting, ...

There would be a EUR 75 fee per Person, which I think is rather fair considering the other options, where renting a tent alone would get us into the same order of magnitude.

In any case, what I need *now* is feedback from those people actually attending

Do you prefer

1. an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large

"hack tent", or

2. an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to

contribute up to EUR XXX, or

3. an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd

have to contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

Please provide your feedback no later than June 23rd, 23:59 CEST. I will be making arrangements (or no arrangements) on June 24th, before leaving on holidays.

Regards, Harald

--

• Harald Welte laforge@gnumonks.org

http://laforge.gnumonks.org/

======= "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

Hey :)

So, yeah, I think the convergence towards singularity is clear.

If you think it's not a problem if I join, I'd gladly do that. Hope there's room for the three or four other GR/openembedded folks that probably would like to join, but that's something that I should probably ask the singularity folks myself, and discuss with the GRfolks. Mostly coming by plane, I'd guess that they'd ask me to organize stuff, anyways.

Anyways, I like the direction this is taking: There's enough Hornbachs, IKEAs and equivalents scattered around that this would work as last- minute fall back in any case.

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 20:22 +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

Thanks for the offer. I am personally a bit more sceptical towards the durability of this lowest-cost approach. Also, Pavillions of course don't have side walls. That's nice for air flow, but also means that they provide literally zero protection from anything but the smallest amount of rain with no wind.

Yep, that's why there's 50€ of tarp on that cost estimate :)

...

That'd cost 5€/m² of "roofed area". Rough estimate: 6 seats per pavillon, if we put tabling in the middle, i.e. single-digit euros in tent costs pP. I'd probably go for three pavillons in total.

The real problem I'd see is table space, and seating. We could go for pasting tables (hopefully, this is how you'd translate /Tapeziertische/)[2].

Honestly, I think anything below "Bierbank" style equipment[1] doesn't make much sense.

Yes, there's beauty in solid tables for any purpose you'd want a table to fulfill.

Also, these are way, way cheaper than I'd have guessed. So, that'd *clearly* rule out the Tapeziertische.

...

I honestly have no idea how to address that; any car that I could reasonably rent to drive ~1500km wouldn't have space for beer tent benches, [...]

We could order whatever stuff in advance and store it at my place in Berlin. I have quite some storage space in my garage. That way one wouldn't have to drive things for 1500km through Germany.

However, I don't have a vehicle larger than a regular limousine car to transport things to/from camp.

Yeah, so I for once in my life decided to get a car (carsharing) that's larger than my former '99 Punto, so knowing how much I can stuff in a Punto, I'm pretty confident that most items smaller than Bierbanks are transportable, no matter from where.

Idea: I'll ask the logistics of that Bierzeltgarnitur supplier whether they do deterministic-day delivery. That solves 50% of the transportation problem.

...

Maybe we could rent tables and chairs locally, but I'd assume they'd require us to provide safe/clean flooring if we want to do that.

Not for "beer tent" benches + tables, which can also be rented. Not sure about the rates.

I'd really think this would be the solution of least effort, if actually possible.

...

One thing, though: I don't want to produce a couple of tables, a few pavillons, and folding chairs in waste. So, we'd ideally come up with a plan for what to do with the gathered infra after camp. That could involve storing some at my or someone else's place, communal space or donating it to someone who can put it to sensible use.

I can certainly store some amount of stuff (as long as it's still in a condition to remain used) at my home, so it could be reused at the very least at the next camp in 4 years.

Something like two Bierzeltgarnituren (each a tables + 2 benches) I'd actually offer to buy out of my own pocket, as I'm sure I'd have use for them at other occasions in my garden.

Oh! Tempting!

If you're paying for all the furnishing out of your own pocket, the least I could do would be transporting them to Berlin after camp (which is more or less on the way home, anyways); a tiny bit of research yields that with the seats folded down, the Renault Kangoo that I'll actually have has 150cm of storage depth, so that's only 70cm of hangover. That's definitely doable within the bounds of StVO and common sense, if we can find a Spanngurt to fixate the stuff.

...

Hope this helps anyone.

Thanks again for your offer. I guess the big questions is whether we will join singularity city, if not, I guess you volunteering is a good thing. If we are joining singularity city, then I suppose it's much less critical as there should at least be some space for us in the shared large tent. Probably not sufficient for everyone to sit there all day long, but then people also will be moving around...

Awesome!

btw: I will be bringing the "Osmocom fan base", if you remember it from last time. It has been operating at the sysmocom offices during the last for years ;)

hehe. I have a new laptop, but it's overheating even more frequently than the previous one. <insert ode to my old X201>

btw2: There's a singularity city organization mumble meeting coming up on July 2nd. Maybe somebody wants to join that to get a better feeling of whether we would still need to bring extra tests and/or tables+seating in that case.

Regards, Harald

[1] https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bierzeltgarnitur-Festzeltgarnitur-Set-Garnitur-Sitzg...

Hi Christian,

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 09:17:17PM +0200, Christian Vogel wrote:

I'd love to also join the osmocom crowd at camp, if you don't mind, so I've added myself to the Wiki page.

of course! Looking forward to seeing you!