14 Jan
2019
14 Jan
'19
4:42 a.m.
Dear Osmocom community,
starting from 16th of January (until 7th of February) we can apply
Google Summer of Code as an Open source mentor organization. Many
well-known projects, such as Debian, FFmpeg, Apache, Git, GCC,
GNURadio and others, have been participating last year.
Personally, I think it's a great opportunity to move some of our
projects forward. I would like to know your opinions about this
idea, should we participate? I would be happy to be a mentor.
With best regards,
Vadim Yanitskiy.
14 Jan
14 Jan
2:38 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:42:05AM +0700, Vadim Yanitskiy wrote:
starting from 16th of January (until 7th of February)
we can apply
Google Summer of Code as an Open source mentor organization. Many
I think we had a GSoC trainee once.
What does it take to participate? Maybe you can simply organise this?
Personally, I think it's a great opportunity to
move some of our
projects forward.
I'm not so sure about quality forward pushing coming from GSoC.
But why not.
~N
2:44 p.m.
Hi Vadim.
I feel somewhat reluctant to be the first to respond and so negatively,
but I for one have serious problems with any further collaboration with
google (et al.) I'm even somewhat unhappy that many people on this
mailing list force me to have my writing archived forever and completely
outside of my control by using gmail email address. but.. hey.. what can
one do? It's "free" right? And we are so poor opensource devs, we can't
afford to run a mail server, or buy an account on non surveillance based
service...
The words "open source" and "google" in the same sentence should not
"compile" but unfortunately, given the sad state of FOSS, they do. I
don't have a good analysis of what google gets out of the summer of
code, nor do I have the time or inclination to go reasearch it right
now, but knowing their general modus operandi I'm pretty sure they get
more out of it that anybody else, as is the case in fact, lamentably
with most FOSS.
I know that my contribution is not huge to Osmocom, but I can say is
response to your proposal, I'd like to see osmocom be a little more on
the ball, and work towards sustainable FOSS, and I firmly believe that
means saying NO to corporate surveillance. Otherwise, what's the point?
As some say in Kreuzberg, Google is kein guter Nachbar! and they are not
your friends either. In the long terms, nothing good will come from
collaboration with them.
It's time to take a stand on ethical investment in FOSS.
"just my 2c" :-P
k/
4:01 p.m.
Hi!
14.01.19 14:44, Keith пишет:
but I for one have serious problems with any further
collaboration with
google (et al.)
You don't have to: nobody forces you to be neither mentor nor student -
GSoC participation is completely voluntarily. Moreover, I'm not really
sure whether receiving payment could be considered as "collaboration" in
the context of Free Software: usually collaboration means code
contributions, tickets, documentation, testing etc.
I'm even somewhat unhappy that many people on
this
mailing list force me to have my writing archived
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. We both write emails from
non-gmail accounts for example.
I don't have a good analysis of what google gets
out of the summer of
code, nor do I have the time or inclination to go reasearch it
I'd really recommend doing some research on the subject matter before
voicing a strong opinion about it.
and work towards sustainable FOSS
Getting extra money and manpower is exactly that, isn't it?
means saying NO to corporate surveillance.
What this have to do with GSoC?
and they are not your friends either.
Again, how is this related to GSoC?
In general, I'm only happy if developer A receive funding for his
Osmocom work from entity B regardless of my personal opinion of either.
--
- Max Suraev <msuraev(a)sysmocom.de> http://www.sysmocom.de/
=======================================================================
* sysmocom - systems for mobile communications GmbH
* Alt-Moabit 93
* 10559 Berlin, Germany
* Sitz / Registered office: Berlin, HRB 134158 B
* Geschaeftsfuehrer / Managing Directors: Harald Welte
4:55 p.m.
On 14/01/2019 16:01, Max wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. We both write emails from
non-gmail accounts for example.
Which are then distributed to a mailing list where there are many gmail
addresses. Under the terms of service agreed to by these subscribers,
the content of THIS message is now google's to scan, analyze, store
forever, input into behavioural study databases, and basically do what
they will with.
Yes, it's publicly archived too, but there is at least no implicit
agreement that it's OK to scrape the openBSC archive and use it to train
your AI, although I imagine google are doing that anyway.
I'd really recommend doing some research on the subject matter before
voicing a strong opinion about it.
I've done quite a lot of research on silicon valley and corporate
surveillance companies, and Google specifically. Results of that
research suggest that drilling into the nitty gritty of the terms of the
GSoC will turn up more of the same. - Maximum benefit for silicon
valley, minimal benefits to society in general and zero attention to the
crisis we are living right now.
So I defend my strong opinion.
Again, how is this related to GSoC?
On this and the other questions, I don't think I can go on here, because
the massive question and potential discussion on how is Google bad for
pretty much everything gets off topic for OpenBSC very quickly.
I'm only happy if developer A receive funding for
his Osmocom work
from entity B regardless of my personal opinion of either.
If developer X is working on FOSS just to get paid, and does not care
about the ethics, they are possibly in the wrong job, but we all do need
to get paid.
Silicon Valley is driving software development it it's preferred
direction in subtle ways. Money is power unfortunately. "software
freedom" IS being eroded, well even the orginal concept was flawed..
but... OT OT
I'm happy to discuss and preferably work on ways to continue developing
truly free software. I know it's hard. I know a lot of people in Osmocom
and elsewhere work very hard on it. I would not stand in the way of
anybody who wants to go to google, but google by its very existence
prevents other alternatives from even being considered because they now
have everything wrapped up.
Vadim asked for opinions and I gave mine. I'll say it once more; google
is not your friend.
15 Jan
15 Jan
11:57 a.m.
Hi.
14.01.19 16:55, Keith пишет:
Yes, it's publicly archived too, but there is at
least no implicit
agreement that it's OK to scrape the openBSC archive and use it to train
your AI, although I imagine google are doing that anyway.
Actually, there is: by the very definition of "public" - BND, Google (or
me :) are complete free to scrape, train AI on or print the messages and
make origami out of them. Using gmail adds absolutely nothing new to the
picture.
I've done quite a lot of research on silicon
valley and corporate
surveillance companies, and Google specifically.
So does FSF I believe. Yet, GNU Hurd, GCC and numerous other projects
have participated in GSoC for many years without any issues. They even
came up with guidelines about it:
https://www.gnu.org/software/soc-projects/guidelines.html
Don't take it personally, but I'd rather side with gnu.org on this one :)
If developer X is working on FOSS just to get paid,
and does not care
about the ethics, they are possibly in the wrong job
I don't think we're in position to judge if FOSS developers are "in the
wrong job" based on ethics disagreements.
I'll say it once more; google
is not your friend.
Nobody claimed otherwise. You're preaching to the choir :)
--
- Max Suraev <msuraev(a)sysmocom.de> http://www.sysmocom.de/
=======================================================================
* sysmocom - systems for mobile communications GmbH
* Alt-Moabit 93
* 10559 Berlin, Germany
* Sitz / Registered office: Berlin, HRB 134158 B
* Geschaeftsfuehrer / Managing Directors: Harald Welte
2:30 p.m.
On 15/01/2019 11:57, Max wrote:
- BND, Google (or me :) are complete free to scrape,
train AI on or
print...
Yep.. and there we see the entrance to one of many rabbit holes here and
something that I consider one of the failures of FOSS and the "open"
movement...
So does FSF I believe....
Hmm. So, I think this (long standing) attitude of the infallible
(FSF|GNU|EFF|etc) is getting very dangerous.
History will absolve me :))
I don't think we're in position to judge if FOSS developers are "in
the wrong job" based on ethics disagreements.
I was more meaning to say that surely if one's goal is purely to make
money, spending the majority of your programming skills/time on FOSS
projects is probably not the best choice.
Not that I don't think this debate should be had, nor do I want to avoid
public discussion at all, but we should probably take this elsewhere..
So.. I still hang out at that place on tuesdays.. BTW.. at least until
it's getting too smoky.
3:17 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 04:01:25PM +0100, Max wrote:
I'm not really sure whether receiving payment
could be considered as
"collaboration" in the context of Free Software: usually collaboration means
code contributions, tickets, documentation, testing etc.
Receiving money is a key part of corruption, for example. For important
public/social positions, there are strict laws about where you're allowed to
get money from for very concrete reasons. GSoC isn't openly imposing anything
as return favor, the same way it isn't openly imposing a return favor for your
search results. But all of it serves their corporate purpose nevertheless.
I find it hard to put in few crisp words, but in general I agree with the
general distrust of companies too huge to be good for anyone.
If nothing else, Google uses GSoC to identify individuals that have time on
their hands, are interested in software and need money, and they affiliate that
new young generation with themselves, imprinting a positive image.
(That's all I'm going to say on it... OT)
~N
3:22 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 03:17:36PM +0100, Neels Hofmeyr wrote:
If nothing else, Google uses GSoC to identify
individuals that have time on
their hands, are interested in software and need money, and they affiliate that
It's more than that. They actively try to hire GsoC students and mentors.
I was a mentor a few times in a row and their recruitment spam never stopped.
3:03 p.m.
New subject: contribution
On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 02:44:33PM +0100, Keith wrote:
I know that my contribution is not huge to Osmocom
The way I feel is that you and Rhizomatica are actually (one of?) the most
important drivers for Osmocom, if not by offloading huge sums of money, then at
least by providing a perspective and meaning. When people ask me what I do they
first go "yes? what? I don't...?" (sadly oblivious of the importance for
openness of critical infra), but when I pull the Rhizomatica card they go "ah,
wow!" -- and you are the most available, most present Rhizomatica person in the
community.
For me personally, the most interesting perspective for Osmocom is exactly the
Rhizomatica use case of becoming a distributed GSM network that is resilient
against network fragmentation between villages, i.e. enabling reliable
operations for people that are not able to make infrastructure problems go away
by dumping millions of bucks on them.
When we're talking about profits and market and all that, granted, but on a
level of meaning and perspective, as well as running real network operations,
in my POV your contribution is actually paramount, is the main reason even.
~N
5:13 p.m.
Hi Vadim,
On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:42:05AM +0700, Vadim Yanitskiy wrote:
starting from 16th of January (until 7th of February)
we can apply
Google Summer of Code as an Open source mentor organization.
Thanks. It's something that I've been pondering several times in the
past, too. I know Holger did it once for Osmocom in the past, AFAIR,
and in netfilter (where I was involved before) we also participated
in GSoC.
The results were - as any results from new developers - mixed. But
I think it's a good opportunity to get new people involved in the project.
Personally, I think it's a great opportunity to
move some of our
projects forward. I would like to know your opinions about this
idea, should we participate? I would be happy to be a mentor.
I think it's a good idea and I'd support it. I just know that given the
many projects I'm already way too late with and overloaded, I will not
be able to personally mentor a GSoC student.
So I'm happy to help with formailtiies, etc. - but that's about it, sorry.
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
26 Feb
26 Feb
5:03 p.m.
Hi all,
since we have seen more neutral and positive opinions than negative ones,
we've tried to apply as a mentor organization. Unfortunately, our application
has been rejected. Sadly, but not the end of the world ;)
Thanks for your feedback!
... and kudos to Harald!
With best regards,
Vadim Yanitskiy.
12 Mar
12 Mar
12:24 p.m.
Thanks for working on this.
Don't give up just yet though - there's another opportunity on the
horizon:
https://opensource.googleblog.com/2019/03/introducing-season-of-docs.html
In short, Google's SoD will pay for people writing documentation for
FOSS projects the same way GSoC pays for writing code.
And documentation is something we can always get improved.
What do you think? ;-)
26.02.19 17:03, Vadim Yanitskiy пишет:
Hi all,
since we have seen more neutral and positive opinions than negative ones,
we've tried to apply as a mentor organization. Unfortunately, our application
has been rejected. Sadly, but not the end of the world ;)
Thanks for your feedback!
... and kudos to Harald!
With best regards,
Vadim Yanitskiy.
--
- Max Suraev <msuraev(a)sysmocom.de> http://www.sysmocom.de/
=======================================================================
* sysmocom - systems for mobile communications GmbH
* Alt-Moabit 93
* 10559 Berlin, Germany
* Sitz / Registered office: Berlin, HRB 134158 B
* Geschaeftsfuehrer / Managing Directors: Harald Welte
9:26 p.m.
Hi Max,
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Max wrote:
Don't give up just yet though - there's
another opportunity on the horizon:
https://opensource.googleblog.com/2019/03/introducing-season-of-docs.html
In short, Google's SoD will pay for people writing documentation for FOSS
projects the same way GSoC pays for writing code.
And documentation is something we can always get improved.
What do you think? ;-)
I think its great. I don't have high hopes that we'd qualify, as it's a bit
of a too niche topic compared to many other projects out there.
However, also keep in mind that the technical writer (if any) will arrive with
no knowledge about Osmocom in the first place, and will likely require tons of
input from us.
I actually think those manuals that we had created about two yearas ago
are half-way-decent, particularly if you know where we're coming from.
The big problem is that there's
1) a lack of updating manuals as we move the code along. We should pay
attention in our code reviews that any user-visible code changes such
as particularly VTY changes should always come with changes to the
manuals at the same time. I think that the manuals where more
fitting the implementation 2 years ago than they are now. This is
the responsibility of the developers introducing changes. No amount
of external technical writers can change that.
2) still a number of osmocom CNI projects that don't have a user manual
at all. Contributions always welcome. However, again that's nothing
a technical writer can do by himself unless he has deep knowledge of
at least 3GPP architectures and protocols...
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
1880
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13 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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Harald Welte -
Keith -
Max -
Neels Hofmeyr -
Stefan Sperling -
Vadim Yanitskiy