17 Jul
2011
17 Jul
'11
1:52 p.m.
I see that pretty much every vendor in GSM industry uses their own dialect in their core
network products, I wonder why. What do they achieve from it while killing compatibility
with other products from other companies?
17 Jul
17 Jul
8:43 p.m.
Hi,
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 08:52:37PM +0900, Seungju Kim wrote:
I see that pretty much every vendor in GSM industry
uses their own
dialect in their core network products, I wonder why. What do they
achieve from it while killing compatibility with other products from
other companies?
It's pretty simple: They ensure the operator is in a "vendor lock-in"
and thus has to buy all equipment from the same vendor.
Thus, there is no real competition and the original "mix and match" idea
as defined in the GSM specs is rendered void.
As an equipment supplier, you can then extort a lot of money from the
operator, since switching from one supplier to another and replacing
equipment is an expensive proposition.
What I'm personally surprised though is why nobody hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor...
Regards,
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
9 p.m.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 3:43 AM, Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 08:52:37PM +0900, Seungju Kim wrote:
I think it is because of the user agreement, I do not think that mobile operators are
allowed to trace the dialects. Have you heard of a game Starcraft? Its end user agreement
says that users must not sniff packets nor make gateways that mimics their protocols. Of
course source modifications are not allowed either. I think there are such agreement
between mobile operators and equipment suppliers about which we do not know much. That
also could be another reason why used network equipments are so hard to get.
I see that pretty much every vendor in GSM
industry uses their own
dialect in their core network products, I wonder why. What do they
achieve from it while killing compatibility with other products from
other companies?
It's pretty simple: They ensure the operator is in a "vendor lock-in"
and thus has to buy all equipment from the same vendor.
Thus, there is no real competition and the original "mix and match" idea
as defined in the GSM specs is rendered void.
As an equipment supplier, you can then extort a lot of money from the
operator, since switching from one supplier to another and replacing
equipment is an expensive proposition.
What I'm personally surprised though is why nobody hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor... Regards,
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
10:34 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Re: Different protocols
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 04:00:29AM +0900, Seungju Kim wrote:
I don't think you could do this, at least not under German law. Running
a program and observing its input and output are always permitted, as
long as you legally obtained the program.
How do you think that Samba would have ever become such a success, and
unharmed by Microsoft? Because they couldn't do anything against people
observing communications protocols.
What I'm
personally surprised though is why nobody hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor...
I think it is because of the user agreement, I do not think that
mobile operators are allowed to trace the dialects. Have you heard of a game Starcraft? Its end user
agreement says that
users must not sniff packets nor make gateways that mimics their
protocols.
Not everything that people put in their EULAs is legally valid and
enforcable.
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
18 Jul
18 Jul
11 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Re: Different protocols
Gentlemen,
What I'm personally surprised though is why nobody
hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor...
Hm, Consider this: For a network operator, the game is to get as close
to 99.999....% uptime as economically possible.
Why? If something breaks, and you can't fix it within the hour, you'll
lose your credibility, and your customers will eventually move to
another network. So its really all about business continuity,
reliability and risk management.
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:18 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Re: Different protocols
Hi Thomas,
good to hear from you!
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:00:51PM +0200, Thomas Seiler wrote:
well, that (as well as the remaining argument) is true at least here in
Europe. It's much different if you go to other places of the world...
What I'm
personally surprised though is why nobody hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor...
Hm, Consider this: For a network operator, the game is to get as close
to 99.999....% uptime as economically possible. This is the oh-so-familiar argument on why many
companies use
exclusively Microsoft, or everything Apple, etc...
ACK, it's the same story all over again. And still in each of the
PC, Desktop, Server, Application Software, OS, etc. markets you see much
more mix + match than in the GSM world... Even if you look at IP
networks, not _everything_ is cisco, you commonly find heterogenous
installations.
Regards,
Harald
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
17 Jul
17 Jul
9:44 p.m.
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> wrote:
What I'm personally surprised though is why nobody
hires people (like us)
to develop translators / gateways between those dialects. That's
probably a hell lot cheaper than replacing your core network from one
vendor with another vendor...
Though greater interoperability contributes directly in reducing
switching costs, manufacturers enforce their lock-in strategy using
also license agreements.
For every degree of freedom adopters ask for (e.g., one more knob or
switch, or vendor independence), they are willingly or not accepting
one more quantum of liability. At the end of the day -- in a world
where there's already very little accountability on the part of
producers and products sold today -- adopters find themselves holding
the liability bag. This can have a major impact on the operational
risks.
There is an opportunity for us, if we deliver not only a gateway
between network dialects but also confidence about the (updated)
processes to which operators would like to entrust their businesses in
order to overcome the vendor lock-in.
Regards,
--
- Harald Welte <laforge(a)gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
(ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
Ciao,
alfonso
-- alfonso tweets @secYOUre blog http://Plaintext.crypto.lo.gy/
4669
days inactive
4669
days old
6 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Alfonso De Gregorio -
Harald Welte -
Seungju Kim -
Thomas Seiler