This is merely a historical archive of years 2008-2021, before the migration to mailman3.
A maintained and still updated list archive can be found at https://lists.osmocom.org/hyperkitty/list/OpenBSC@lists.osmocom.org/.
Harald Welte laforge at gnumonks.orgHi Stefan, On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:54:27AM +0200, Stefan Sperling wrote: > On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 07:50:26PM +0800, Harald Welte wrote: > > We develop those test suites because we > > care about having well-tested FOSS in cellular communications, whether > > Osmocom or other FOSS projects. I certainly don't want to spend my > > spare time, or invest sysmocom resources towards improving the test > > coverage of any non-FOSS implementations. If such users are out there, > > they should at the very least contribute to the development effort in > > one way (code) or another (funding). > > I understand your concern. But FOSS often ends up being used in places > and ways which the original authors of the software don't endorse for > moral or ethical reasons. This problem exists for all FOSS projects in > some form or another. I agree. However, I still think that a test suite for "protocol/spec conformance" to an industry standard is something different here. 1) the test suite is not the main "product" of Osmocom, but it is merely a tool to test our FOSS software. Most projects don't face the problem that way, as most unit tests or other tests invariably cover very specific aspects of their software (APIs, data structures, custom interfaces of any sort), and hence the usefulness of those tests beyond the project is very limited. 2) I believe the fundamental reason why there's a lack of published test suites for most protocol specs out there is that all respective developing companies/entities keep them private. There are even examples of companies developing [dual licensed] FOSS software but keeping the test suites private. The only examples that come to mind in the cellular sphere are the ETSI conformance test suites published in TTCN-3, but mostly in a format that cannot be consumed directly by TITAN (or any other TTCN3 compiler/runtime) as larte parts about interfacing the test system are left for the user to implement. And they have restrictive/unclear licenses. But even outside the 3GPP world, I think there aren't many [FOSS] conformance/compliance tests out there for protocols. I don't recall having seen any of those for the many protocols I worked with in the past, e.g. FTP/SMTP/POP3/IMAP/NNTP/PPTP - so the IETF world doesn't appear to be much different. > There could be some useful "prior art"; have you > already looked for similar discussions elsewhere? I'm not aware of a discussion specifically for protocol functional/conformance testing. There are of course the various discussions about licenses in the "cloud world" where even AGPL is deemed insufficient by some entities. I don't like that development in general, as a) those entities call their software still 'open source' when it should instead be 'source available' b) the licenses are for the actual 'product' and not for a test suite around that product > > Finally, it also means that we'd no longer be writing "free > > software" nor "open source", as the respective relevant definitions > > always require "non discriminatory use for any purpose", which would > > no longer be the case here. > > Indeed. The best way to limit downstream consumers to a subset of "everyone" > would be a proprietary licence. I don't think Osmocom should adopt one. Certainly I would never propose to use a non-FOSS license for the actual Osmocom software, i.e. the 3GPP protocol and functional elements implementations we're working on. Osmocom *is* about open source cellular implementations, and nothing else. But I think for test suites it is something worth a debate. I actually started to have related thoughts already about osmo-gsm-tester and the existing TTCN-3 test suites. Those kind of test suites are rarely ever executed by a user. So it isn't relevant to the freedom of the end user (typically a small commercial or non-commercial operator) if the actual test suites are FOSS or not. Availability of the test suites matters most to developers, and I would argue that it mostly is about 'source available', and not about 'open source'. > The usual approach would be to accept the risks of inadvertently helping > proprietary competitors, stick to a well-known FOSS licence, and hope that > the benefits outweigh the risks in the long term. Osmocom is a small speckle of dust in the world of cellular communications, while virtually everyone, even the very smallest proprietary player has more significance in terms of market adoption as well as 'revenue' surrounding the project/product compared to proprietary vendors. (I'm talking about 'pure' proprietary vendors here, not the likes of Range Networks, SRS, ...) We're working on a seemingly insurmountable task in terms of both breadth (all network elements of from PHY to CN in 2G/2.5/2.75G, CN for 3G/3.5G, and now 4G) as well as complexity of the related technology, with incredibly limited resources and a surprisingly small team. We have to make sure that the result of our work counts, and that those limited resources are invested very wisely. The amount of contributions outside of the relatively small and dedicated community of developers and users has been small (but existant!) for the actual Osmocom CNI programs, particularly in recent years. But looking at the osmo-ttcn3-hacks repository, I cannot find a single commit in the tree that was not written either by somebody on sysmocom payroll or by Vadim (yay! thanks!). Meanwhile, the business model of the tradiditonal cellular industry is very much anti-FOSS, if not only due to the fact that a (if not the) largest revenue comes from licensing "essential patents" on what is written in the 3GPP specs. So I would not expect any significant change in terms of contributions to related projects from the traditional proprietary industry even in the forseeable future. In the end, I think that proprietary vendors interested in the test suites would actually not have a problem licensinge it under proprietary/commercial terms - this is their normal business irrespective of where they source that testsuite from. Any related resources help us to co-fund the development of the tests - and FOSS projects can still use them. Regards, Harald -- - Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/ ============================================================================ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)