From laforge at gnumonks.org  Mon Oct 14 18:28:05 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:28:05 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
Message-ID: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>

Dear all,

sorry for the long absence.  I've been distracted during the past year by
too much work (both dayjob, as well as many FOSS projects) and by tons of
renovation related work in my house.

In any case, I finally found sime time to work on at least some of the TODO
items in thsi project.  I'll spare you the details (some are in the wiki and
related tickets).

The high level goals remain: Have a portable setup consisting of:
* a PBX and reasonable numer of both analog and ISDN ports
* a Livingston PM3 RAS to avoid tons of individual modems and multiport serial
  boards on the BBS side
* set up at least a few BBSs that users can explore
* a collection of physical modems, ISDN TA, and all related accessories (phone
  line cables, RS232 cables, adapters, etc.) that users can borrow

The idea then is that at the event (36C3 will be at least the first one) people
can come to the "retro BBS assembly" or whatever it will be called, and connect
using terminal programs and modems/TAs which they can borrow on-site, or of course
bring any old equipment they may still have.

My status is as follows:
* physical PBX setup (wiring, etc) is complete (16x analog,8x S0,8x Up0)
* PBX configuration is complete
* Livingston PM3 is configured
* Synchronet BBS (one of the few BBS packages that are both FOSS and actively
  maintained) has been set up in a lxc container
** telnet access works
** modem access via mgetty works
** modem access via SEXPOTS works

In parallel, a crew around the old BIONIC BBS has been reviving Zerberus from
the dead.  I'm not up to speed in terms of their detailed status, but at the very
least, there's a Zerberus VM Image based on FreeDOS which works, even with real
analog modems handed into the VM (I just tested it this weekend).

My current work areas are:
* Linux SoftPBX with multiple E1 interfaces (probably FreeSWITCH with one or
  two QuadE1 boards, as LCR doesn't support DAHDI boards, and HFC-E1 boards
  mostly only have one port per PCI slot).  This SoftPBX is going to be the
  switch between the Portmaster and the Auerswald PBX, as well as possibly more
  other PBXs in the future
* Get my Synchronet BBS connected to at least DOVE-Net, maybe even FidoNet
  to populate Message Arease with Echomail before 36C3
* Test PM3->telnet->SynchroNet
* If there's time, play with other current Linux BBS software such as Mystic BBS

If anyone wants to join this setup at 36C3, by all means, please do so.  I could
envision at least the following forms of contribution:

1) Run your own BBS.  If you want to set up another BBS (or revive and
   old one from a backup), by all means!  I can hook you up either via
   analog lines or S0-busses, or even only via telnet/rlogin from the
   Portmaster.

2) Bring client-side systems.  That could be anything from a serial
   terminal [which we can hook up to a modem], or some vintage computer
   (any flavor) with terminal software [which we can hook up to a
   modem]. 

3) Help on-site e.g. build-up and teardown, but also during the event to
   give support to users who show up and want to set up their Laptop
   with a terminal program and one of the modems and log onto the BBSs


Crazy future goals (beyond 36C3):
* I actually bought four STM-1 add/drop multiplexers with 16 E1 ports each.
  This would allow us to build a more distributed setup with PBXs at different
  sites and fiber connections between them.  Why not have a SDH backbone at
  future CCC events :)
* Get back to the idea of improving the FOSS VoIP-Softmodem situation to
  enable more people to use dial-up without any actual hardware
  requirement.


Looking forward to any feedback.

Regards,
	Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From christian at clarke-3.de  Sat Oct 19 13:35:48 2019
From: christian at clarke-3.de (Christian Berger)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:35:48 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
Message-ID: <c9ce2168-45d5-efc7-81d3-c483474c67ed@clarke-3.de>

Servus,

I think I'm also speaking for the BTX community if I ask if we could 
have the phone numbers 190 and 0190. Those are the numbers programmed 
into the standard Modem for BTX terminals.

Servus
   Christian



From laforge at gnumonks.org  Sat Oct 19 18:34:34 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 20:34:34 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <c9ce2168-45d5-efc7-81d3-c483474c67ed@clarke-3.de>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <c9ce2168-45d5-efc7-81d3-c483474c67ed@clarke-3.de>
Message-ID: <19EFE26B-35BB-40D5-B4D9-3C92CC85C2C3@gnumonks.org>

Sure, I can take care of that. 190 can be routed in the Auerswald pbx itself, 0190 might have to be routed back from the soft switch as 0 is used for dialing out of the pbx to the simulated pstn.

Will you have any equipment around for implementing the network side of BTX, which you intend to connect to our pbx?

Regards,
Harald

On October 19, 2019 3:35:48 PM GMT+02:00, Christian Berger <christian at clarke-3.de> wrote:
>Servus,
>
>I think I'm also speaking for the BTX community if I ask if we could 
>have the phone numbers 190 and 0190. Those are the numbers programmed 
>into the standard Modem for BTX terminals.
>
>Servus
>   Christian

-- 
Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse my brevity.


From social at insanelygreat.de  Sun Oct 20 05:29:11 2019
From: social at insanelygreat.de (Christian Schneider)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:29:11 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
Message-ID: <7CF80379-8710-4D47-AFC7-6FF6BF936027@insanelygreat.de>

I hope the installation will make its way to one of the open chaos events like GPN. Since access to the bigger events is all voucher-based I?m out for now. If so, I have set up a time-correct BBS with Maximus on an old OS/2 machine and a typical DOS PC with CRT to get as close to the experience as possible.

Best Regads,
Christian


From christian at clarke-3.de  Sun Oct 20 15:59:31 2019
From: christian at clarke-3.de (Christian Berger)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:59:31 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
Message-ID: <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>

Just as a question/idea: Will the modem banks/PBX be connected to the 
POC? (e.g. via SIP/RTP)

Since there are DECT->POTS converter boxes available, this might make it 
easy for people around the congress to connect to the BBSes.



From laforge at osmocom.org  Sun Oct 20 20:43:48 2019
From: laforge at osmocom.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 22:43:48 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <7CF80379-8710-4D47-AFC7-6FF6BF936027@insanelygreat.de>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <7CF80379-8710-4D47-AFC7-6FF6BF936027@insanelygreat.de>
Message-ID: <20191020204348.GW4389@nataraja>

Hi Christian,

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 07:29:11AM +0200, Christian Schneider wrote:
> I hope the installation will make its way to one of the open chaos events like GPN. 

I cannot make promises on that.  It probably depends on whether or not more people
get involved with the project, reducing the dependency on me.

I might make it to EasterHegg, but it's too early to say.

> I have set up a time-correct BBS with Maximus on an old OS/2 machine
> and a typical DOS PC with CRT to get as close to the experience as
> possible.

great!

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at osmocom.org>            http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From laforge at osmocom.org  Sun Oct 20 20:46:20 2019
From: laforge at osmocom.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 22:46:20 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
Message-ID: <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 05:59:31PM +0200, Christian Berger wrote:
> Just as a question/idea: Will the modem banks/PBX be connected to the POC?
> (e.g. via SIP/RTP)

There is currently no plan for that.  As the POC is all-IP these days, I don't
have particularly high hopes regarding how well it can carry Modem communication,
with all the jitter that's going on.  A few years ago, the POC was still entirely
ISDN based, but those days are over :/

> Since there are DECT->POTS converter boxes available, this might make it
> easy for people around the congress to connect to the BBSes.

You're free to try, but I wouldn't have my hopes up.  Also, DECT is actually using
lossy compression for voice, as far as I know...

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at osmocom.org>            http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From ij at amigaxess.de  Sun Oct 20 21:14:20 2019
From: ij at amigaxess.de (=?utf-8?Q?Ingo_J=C3=BCrgensmann?=)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 23:14:20 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
 <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
Message-ID: <683F46FA-4350-4698-A57A-F38916ABAFB7@amigaxess.de>

Am 20.10.2019 um 22:46 schrieb Harald Welte <laforge at osmocom.org>:

> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 05:59:31PM +0200, Christian Berger wrote:
>> Just as a question/idea: Will the modem banks/PBX be connected to the POC?
>> (e.g. via SIP/RTP)
> There is currently no plan for that.  As the POC is all-IP these days, I don't
> have particularly high hopes regarding how well it can carry Modem communication,
> with all the jitter that's going on.  A few years ago, the POC was still entirely
> ISDN based, but those days are over :/

Well, not really modem-related, but I can report that using FAX via IP-based connections (via satellite connections and SIP) is mostly working. It?s ?mostly? with some restrictions that means: it is not 100% reliable and depends on many factors. 

But I also used two Zyxel U1496E modems with my Amiga&Linux box like this: 
- both modems connected to the analogue ports of the local Fritzbox
- one modem registered via VPN to a phone number at my parents home (Fritzbox) 
- dialing from local phone number to remote phone number & vice versa
- connection rates were like 4800, 9600, 14000 or even 16800 baud, sometime no connect

So, basically it is working. Cisco documentation for fax setup in voice routers states that no more than 14.4k is supported. 

It would be nice to gather some more experience on 36c3 with modem connections via IP connections.  

-- 
Ciao...          //        http://blog.windfluechter.net
      Ingo     \X/     XMPP: ij at jabber.windfluechter.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc





From christian at clarke-3.de  Mon Oct 21 05:34:01 2019
From: christian at clarke-3.de (Christian Berger)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:34:01 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
 <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
Message-ID: <b37f90fd-9240-6f97-6661-415c4e2d2d57@clarke-3.de>

On 20.10.19 22:46, Harald Welte wrote:
> There is currently no plan for that.  As the POC is all-IP these days, I don't
> have particularly high hopes regarding how well it can carry Modem communication,
> with all the jitter that's going on.  A few years ago, the POC was still entirely
> ISDN based, but those days are over :/

Well jitter isn't the potential problem, that's what the jitter buffer
is for. The potential problem is clock skew. Once the clock of the
sender and the receiver differ by more than one packet (e.g. 20ms) audio
data either gets lost or has to be added. Since 20 ms is a lot of
damaged signal, modems will probably disconnect here.

The solution is to make sure you only have a single clock domain, which
is hard when you have 2 sides using TDM of different protocols (ISDN and
DECT). It is much simpler, BTW to do this with IP-based softmodems,
since there you don't actually have any clock. You just get RTP packets
in, and for every incoming packet you send one out. Hypothetically there
is something called a "lost packet", but that only occurs on faulty
networks (e.g. overloaded networks, wireless networks).

BTW any Codec is lossy and G.711 also has its losses. The actual issue
is if those losses are something the modem can handle. Surely you cannot
send 38k over a 32k DECT channel, but lower rates should work.

Servus
  Casandro


From christian at clarke-3.de  Mon Oct 21 05:40:41 2019
From: christian at clarke-3.de (Christian Berger)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 07:40:41 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <683F46FA-4350-4698-A57A-F38916ABAFB7@amigaxess.de>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
 <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
 <683F46FA-4350-4698-A57A-F38916ABAFB7@amigaxess.de>
Message-ID: <a2370c8a-b803-13d6-9dfb-ae4bb73ad8c8@clarke-3.de>

On 20.10.19 23:14, Ingo J?rgensmann wrote:
> So, basically it is working. Cisco documentation for fax setup in voice routers states that no more than 14.4k is supported. 

Cisco is probably referring to T.38 which is something completely
different. Cisco is actually one of the worst companies in regards to
SIP. They speak weird edge-cases of the protocol and force G.729 onto
their users.

T.38 actually is a protocol you could have a lot of fun with as it's
fairly complicated, but flexible and has lots of broken implementations
even on devices like the AVM Fritz!Box. There are Fax machines which
will refuse to work with T.38 on a Fritz!Box as they will reliably
trigger that bug.


From ij at amigaxess.de  Mon Oct 21 06:01:36 2019
From: ij at amigaxess.de (=?utf-8?Q?Ingo_J=C3=BCrgensmann?=)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 08:01:36 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <a2370c8a-b803-13d6-9dfb-ae4bb73ad8c8@clarke-3.de>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
 <24c07e61-1909-4965-8694-750dbf06cb8d@clarke-3.de>
 <20191020204620.GX4389@nataraja>
 <683F46FA-4350-4698-A57A-F38916ABAFB7@amigaxess.de>
 <a2370c8a-b803-13d6-9dfb-ae4bb73ad8c8@clarke-3.de>
Message-ID: <F97379FE-25CB-4CBD-8649-6213F2FC05B5@amigaxess.de>


Am 21.10.2019 um 07:40 schrieb Christian Berger <christian at clarke-3.de>:

> On 20.10.19 23:14, Ingo J?rgensmann wrote:
>> So, basically it is working. Cisco documentation for fax setup in voice routers states that no more than 14.4k is supported. 
> Cisco is probably referring to T.38 which is something completely
> different. Cisco is actually one of the worst companies in regards to
> SIP. They speak weird edge-cases of the protocol and force G.729 onto
> their users.
> T.38 actually is a protocol you could have a lot of fun with as it's
> fairly complicated, but flexible and has lots of broken implementations
> even on devices like the AVM Fritz!Box. There are Fax machines which
> will refuse to work with T.38 on a Fritz!Box as they will reliably
> trigger that bug.

Well, the main argument in my previous mail was not Cisco but that modem connections are basically working via SIP connections, although you might not get your desired connection speed. Distance between both locations were >450km. 
So, as previously stated: I think it?s worth to collect some more experience on 36c3, although I know as well that many BBS/FTN sysops are still receiving calls via phones lines (behind IP) and it?s working. 

:-)

-- 
Ciao...          //        http://blog.windfluechter.net
      Ingo     \X/     XMPP: ij at jabber.windfluechter.net
	
gpg pubkey:  http://www.juergensmann.de/ij_public_key.asc





From laforge at osmocom.org  Fri Oct 25 18:46:36 2019
From: laforge at osmocom.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 20:46:36 +0200
Subject: [bbs-revival] Plans for #36C3 / Status Report
In-Reply-To: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
References: <20191014182804.GA3578@nataraja>
Message-ID: <20191025184636.GE324@nataraja>

Hi again,

FYI, I've meanwhile registered a "BBS Revival / Retronetworking" assembly
at https://signup.c3assemblies.de/assembly/050e89eb-841d-4722-a640-c2b2eba695b6

I would be great if some other people attending 36C3 would be interested in getting
involved and helping with the actual physical setup on-site, as well as sticking
around at least for some time during the event to help users/visitors with setting
up their terminal program, modem, logging into BBSs, etc.

I will bring a few (old) laptops with terminal programs installed and
modem/ISDN-TA attached, as well as lots of additional
modems/cables/adapters which people can connect to their own laptops.
I'm planning for something like a total of 10 seats where people can
connect.

It would also still be great if anyone else wanted to bring an old or new BBS to
the event, whether in physical form or in form of a VM image.

We also have to work on mundane tasks such as designing + printing a
large sing/banner (probably best in ANSI-ART?), and maybe some kind of
HOWTO document that newbies can use as guidance for how to get started.

Regards,
	Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at osmocom.org>            http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)