From laforge at gnumonks.org  Fri Jun 21 16:54:04 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:54:04 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Osmocom Village at CCC Camp 2019
Message-ID: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja>

Dear all,

I've been asked by a number of pepole about a possible Osmocom village at the
CCC Camp 2019.  I personally didn't really have any plans, but given related
e-mails and "encouragement" I went ahead and registered an "Osmocom Village",
see
	https://signup.c3assemblies.de/assembly/3b8f7aa2-95d5-4c44-aadc-de8f2680e9c3

I also created a wiki page (as nobody else did, despite earlier discussion on IRC,
SCNR) for coordinating related efforts at
	https://osmocom.org/projects/osmo-dev-con/wiki/CCC_Camp_2019

One of the bigger questions is about having a tent as well as some tables/benches
to sit on and work.  The Camp orga team nas been negotiating rates with a tent
rental company, but to be honest I'm rather surprised by the extremely steep
pricing.  The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR.  I'm not
sure we want to raise that amount of money?  Even if we'd be 10 people sharing
it, its still 82.50 EUR per person.  And that excludes any tables/chairs.

I'm attaching the relevant parts of a mail from the assemblies orga team FYI.

Please note there also is some kind of fragmentation / overlap with the
team planning to run the GSM/3G networks at the camp, see Lynxis'
related post at
https://lists.osmocom.org/mailman/private/osmocom-event-orga/2019-June/000362.html

It's questionable whether it makes sense to have tow distinct
'villages', but given that e.g. I don't know anyone of that singularity
city, I'm not sure if we'd either be welcome there, nor whether we'd
want to associate us with them?  Also, while the GSM network operation
for sure has good reasons to mingle with the POC and whatever facilities
they have, I'm not sure if the wider Osmocom community attendees
unrelated to the GSM network operation wouldn't just be a
disturbance/nuisance.

In the end, to be honest, I personally do not feel I have the time and
mental capacity to take on any additional tasks in terms of organizing
anything.  I just created the entry in c3assemblies as I was asked to,
and I similarly created the related mailing list and wiki page.

So please, anyone interested in making an Osmocom village happen one way
or another, step up [and continue this discussion on the
camp2019-village at lists.osmocom.org mailing list, without crossposting
everywhere else :)

Regards,
	Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)
-------------- next part --------------
Ticket sale is over. There are no more tickets available. There will be no ticket sale on site. That means
you should know how many will join your village. In the next days we start planning the placing of the
assemblies, we need your help.

Please update your village registration at [3] https://signup.c3assemblies.de/ with the number of people
who will join, extra space you require, power requirements, and such. Please write all information to be
considered in the village registration form.

There have been some frequently asked questions in the last weeks. So we want to address some topics here:

Tents/Tables/Benches/Construction Wood:
Prebuilt tents, tables, benches and wood can be borrowed or bought via the presale system: [4]
https://tickets.events.ccc.de/camp2019hw/. For now there are only tents because we need to order them
soon. The rest will follow and can be bought with the same voucher. You will recieve a voucher with this
email (see below). The earlier you order your stuff, the more likely we can provide what you want.
Especially tents might be in short supply. Please remember bringing cash for the mandatory deposit of ?
100,- for renting tables and benches.

Water:
We want to remind you, if you bring cooking equipment, there will be no direct fresh water and waste water
supply for your kitchen. We will have some central places with fresh water supply and where you can wash
your kitchen utensiles and dishes.

Power:
Power will be generated from diesel with power generators. All engergy you'll use will have to be
generated. Think about our environment and use as little power as possible. For that reason, there is no
possibility to fulfill high power demands for pizza ovens, saunas and alike. If you need cooling for your
food supplies, please think about your refrigeration requirements. Less is more. And please bring enough
outdoor and rain proof extension cables to connect your tents and equipment.

Fire:
Open wood or coal fire is not allowed at any time. That applies for anything that needs heat for kitchen
usage. If you need heat, please bring your own safe gas-based camping heaters.

Waste:
Of course there will be containers for waste, paper and glass on the camp site. But the camp tries to be
as sustainable and ecological as possible. So please consider bringing reusable dishes and cutlery. Also
think about bringing a refillable water bottle for this is the more ecological alternative to bottled
water. The tap water is perfectly drinkable.

Wiki:
There will be no automatic transfer of your data from the village registration tool to the wiki. Please
create your own Wiki page using the form at [5] https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/wiki/Form:Village if you
want your village appear in the wiki. Please be aware that the only valid place for village registration
is [6] https://signup.c3assemblies.de/

Timeline:
14.8: Buildup: Only for angels who help with buildup and registered at the orga- or angelsystem with their dates
16.8: People can start to build up their villages, no power or network yet
19.8: Power is probably(!) available from now
21.8: Offical start of the CCCamp19 \o/
25.8: Last day of the CCCamp19, start of disassembly in the evening
28.8: Last day of disassembly, all must be finished no later than this day. If you stay 27th/28th, you are
expected to help out!

Please see [7] https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/wiki/Timeline for recent updates.

[1] https://signup.c3assemblies.de/
[2] https://tickets.events.ccc.de/camp2019hw/
[3] https://signup.c3assemblies.de/
[4] https://tickets.events.ccc.de/camp2019hw/
[5] https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/wiki/Form:Village
[6] https://signup.c3assemblies.de/
[7] https://events.ccc.de/camp/2019/wiki/Timeline


From laforge at gnumonks.org  Fri Jun 21 17:01:09 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 19:01:09 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Osmocom Village at CCC Camp 2019
In-Reply-To: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

> One of the bigger questions is about having a tent as well as some tables/benches
> to sit on and work.  The Camp orga team nas been negotiating rates with a tent
> rental company, but to be honest I'm rather surprised by the extremely steep
> pricing.  The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR.  I'm not
> sure we want to raise that amount of money?  Even if we'd be 10 people sharing
> it, its still 82.50 EUR per person.  And that excludes any tables/chairs.

FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:
* Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
* Price includes buildup and teardown.
* As we need to check every order with our contractor for availability,
  please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.


-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From philip at opensdr.com  Fri Jun 21 18:01:47 2019
From: philip at opensdr.com (Philip Balister)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 14:01:47 -0400
Subject: [camp2019-village] Osmocom Village at CCC Camp 2019
In-Reply-To: <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <15b6cda3-7dc1-daf9-9aec-eb3ed093aff7@opensdr.com>

On 06/21/2019 01:01 PM, Harald Welte wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> 
>> One of the bigger questions is about having a tent as well as some tables/benches
>> to sit on and work.  The Camp orga team nas been negotiating rates with a tent
>> rental company, but to be honest I'm rather surprised by the extremely steep
>> pricing.  The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR.  I'm not
>> sure we want to raise that amount of money?  Even if we'd be 10 people sharing
>> it, its still 82.50 EUR per person.  And that excludes any tables/chairs.
> 
> FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:
> * Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
> * Price includes buildup and teardown.
> * As we need to check every order with our contractor for availability,
>   please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.

Does anyone recall how big the tent was from last camp? How much was it?

Philip



From laforge at gnumonks.org  Sat Jun 22 08:51:50 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 10:51:50 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village at
 CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>

Dear all,

Further updates:

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 07:01:09PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> > pricing.  The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825 EUR.  I'm not
> > sure we want to raise that amount of money?  Even if we'd be 10 people sharing
> > it, its still 82.50 EUR per person.  And that excludes any tables/chairs.
> 
> FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:
> * Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
> * Price includes buildup and teardown.
> * As we need to check every order with our contractor for availability,
>   please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.

* I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly less
  but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional wooden floor,
  180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).

* I was in touch with Jan from stratum0, which is the hackerspace organizing
  the "singularity city".  There are various (german) details available at
  https://singularitycity.de/ and https://singularitycity.de/kosten.html.  They
  will organize a large 8x12m tent, plus kitchen tent, plus another one for workshops,
  refrigeration for drinks, breakfast buffet, power distribution, lighting, ...

  There would be a EUR 75 fee per Person, which I think is rather fair considering
  the other options, where renting a tent alone would get us into the same order
  of magnitude.

In any case, what I need *now* is feedback from those people actually attending

Do you prefer

1) an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large "hack tent", or

2) an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to contribute
   up to EUR XXX, or

3) an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd have to
   contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

Please provide your feedback no later than June 23rd, 23:59 CEST. I will
be making arrangements (or no arrangements) on June 24th, before leaving on
holidays.

Regards,
	Harald

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From 246tnt at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 09:09:55 2019
From: 246tnt at gmail.com (Sylvain Munaut)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 11:09:55 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village
 at CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <CAHL+j08-xL_ag-mHPaXH240gmQeSmY7H0_E67SufHdh4mAU-1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Harald,


> * I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly less
>   but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional wooden floor,
>   180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).

Is that for the same size tent ?  Also I guess that doesn't include
any table/chairs right ?

I don't think we ever had wooden floor at previous events.

I know we handled shipping / build-up / tear-down ourselves, but
obviously that require someone with the means to transport that and
time for build / tear-down.
I get on site on the 20th (~ midday) and leave on the 25th evening if
that helps.


> 1) an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large "hack tent", or

Definitely not. I mean, I think the whole point of the camp is to get
together and work/hack on stuff.
Without  a good place to set down that makes it difficult.

> 2) an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to contribute
>    up to EUR XXX, or
>
> 3) an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd have to
>    contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

I'm good with either of those options. And as for the XXX, I think
anything less than 100 EUR is reasonable for me.
Unfortunately coming by plane, I can't really bring much
"infrastructure" with me. So I definitely wouldn't mind be part of
singularity city and have someone else handle the logistics.
I think it might just depend on how many people we are and if they can
accept us without being crowded :p

Cheers,

    Sylvain


From lynxis at fe80.eu  Sat Jun 22 12:30:50 2019
From: lynxis at fe80.eu (Alexander Couzens)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 14:30:50 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village
 at CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <20190622143050.466c9f57@lazus.yip>

> Please note there also is some kind of fragmentation / overlap with
> the team planning to run the GSM/3G networks at the camp, see Lynxis'
> related post at
> https://lists.osmocom.org/mailman/private/osmocom-event-orga/2019-June/000362.html

I don't see any sense in splitting up the osmocom and camp gsm team.

> Do you prefer
> 
> 1) an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large
> "hack tent", or
> 
> 2) an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to
> contribute up to EUR XXX, or
> 
> 3) an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd
> have to contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

I would like to take the option 3)
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From axilirator at gmail.com  Sat Jun 22 14:02:42 2019
From: axilirator at gmail.com (Vadim Yanitskiy)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 21:02:42 +0700
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village
 at CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <20190622143050.466c9f57@lazus.yip>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja> <20190622143050.466c9f57@lazus.yip>
Message-ID: <CAPEnp=bB-OyzK8ARxA3536OUA2CE3xt-3PYjNJX-pBD6PcDdBA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Harald,

??, 22 ???. 2019 ?. ? 20:00, Alexander Couzens wrote:
> I don't see any sense in splitting up the osmocom and camp gsm team.

I also don't see any reason to have a separate Village, TBH.
Nobody has explained so far what is planned to be there:

  - hardware (SIMTrace, osmo-clck-gen, etc.) workshops?
  - GNU Radio (gr-iridium, gr-gsm) workshops?
  - or just another place to seat? ;)

Or was it suggested as a place for Osmocom community members,
who are not involved in the 2-3-4G network organization?

How much room will we have at the Camp GSM Village?

With best regards,
Vadim Yanitskiy.


From laforge at gnumonks.org  Sat Jun 22 16:22:50 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 18:22:50 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village
 at CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <CAPEnp=bB-OyzK8ARxA3536OUA2CE3xt-3PYjNJX-pBD6PcDdBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
 <20190622143050.466c9f57@lazus.yip>
 <CAPEnp=bB-OyzK8ARxA3536OUA2CE3xt-3PYjNJX-pBD6PcDdBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190622162250.GA30387@nataraja>

Hi Vadim,

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 09:02:42PM +0700, Vadim Yanitskiy wrote:
> ??, 22 ???. 2019 ?. ? 20:00, Alexander Couzens wrote:
> > I don't see any sense in splitting up the osmocom and camp gsm team.
> 
> I also don't see any reason to have a separate Village, TBH.

The point was that there are a number of (Osmocom and related) people
who have nothing to do with operating a network at the camp.  Lynxis
registered a village specifically for the 2G/3G netowrk team.

Meanwhile, some other people have been asking me about an Osmocom village,
and whether there were any plans.  As there were none, I went ahead to
register one.

I don't mind having one village, or co-locating them.  I just think that
a village for the 2G/3G network team doesn't imply that it is inviting
other Osmocom (or near Osmocom) folks to join.

> Nobody has explained so far what is planned to be there:

I understood it pretty much like the Osmocom village at previous camps:
Just a bunch of people having their tents together and an area to work
and chat.

>   - hardware (SIMTrace, osmo-clck-gen, etc.) workshops?
>   - GNU Radio (gr-iridium, gr-gsm) workshops?

I'm not aware of anyone having the time and interest to hold public workshops.
Those that we had at previous events were at separate workshop tents and not
in the Osmcoom village.

>   - or just another place to seat? ;)

It's not just the seating, but primarily a spot where people have their tents
near each other.

> Or was it suggested as a place for Osmocom community members,
> who are not involved in the 2-3-4G network organization?

ACK.

> How much room will we have at the Camp GSM Village?

Lynxis will hsve to answer on that.

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From marcus at hostalia.de  Sat Jun 22 17:28:02 2019
From: marcus at hostalia.de (Marcus =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=FCller?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 19:28:02 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now
In-Reply-To: <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja>
 <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja> <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <9d7cc5ceca576e772e10f299926f80255877f511.camel@hostalia.de>

Hi everyone,

first of: from the choices presented, singularity sounds best. I don't
know whether I'd even have the privilege to join that, tbh.

Mainly:

Considering I've been benefiting from spatial vicinity to osmocom very
much last camp, I feel like I should be contributing here. 

So let me offer the following: 

I can see how it's desirable to have someone deliver, build and remove
a robust tent, if one's simply restricted in the amount of time and
transport one can contribute.

I could be coming in on the 20th arriving earliest at ca 17:00 from
Karlsruhe driving (I think) a rented Berlingo or similar.

Honestly, if that doesn't feel too sketchy, I could pick up a couple of
standard pavillon things [1] on the way, and bring enough rope, zip
ties, and tape to make that work in all but the harshest weather.
That'd cost 5?/m? of "roofed area". Rough estimate: 6 seats per
pavillon, if we put tabling in the middle, i.e. single-digit euros in
tent costs pP. I'd probably go for three pavillons in total.

The real problem I'd see is table space, and seating.
We could go for pasting tables (hopefully, this is how you'd translate
/Tapeziertische/)[2]. That'd amount to ca 17?/m, and I'd assume about a
meter would be a good amount of personal freedom.
I considered that particular table due to the fact that it's not having
annoying diagonal beams to support it from below.

Seating is a bit problematic: the camping chair is a bit too
comfortable (yes, that's possible) to work at desk height. I honestly
have no idea how to address that; any car that I could reasonably rent
to drive ~1500km wouldn't have space for beer tent benches, and I don't
know how desirable it is to pack and bring standard chairs.
What I can offer is to take orders for IKEA Gunde (6?, [3]), which are
notoriously not insanely annoying to carry.

Maybe we could rent tables and chairs locally, but I'd assume they'd
require us to provide safe/clean flooring if we want to do that. Also,
at this point, one simply can't (or even know the prices of doing so).

One thing, though: I don't want to produce a couple of tables, a few
pavillons, and folding chairs in waste. So, we'd ideally come up with a
plan for what to do with the gathered infra after camp. That could
involve storing some at my or someone else's place, communal space or
donating it to someone who can put it to sensible use.

So, worst case common cost calculation:

Item              | Cost | Count | Total
------------------+------+-------+------
Pavillon 9m?      |   35 |   3   |   105
Table 3m          |   50 |   4(?)|   200
Tarp & Tape       |   50 |   1   |    50
------------------+------+-------+------ SUM                                 355


Seating would be per buttocks. So, let's say, 15 people (I have no idea
how many would want to participate), that'd make p.P.

Item              | Cost | Count | Total
------------------+------+-------+------
IKEA Gunde        |    6 | 1     |     6
Partial infrastr. |  355 | 1/15  |    24
------------------+------+-------+------ SUM                                  30

As you can guess, I think the interesting part here is less the fact
that we'd be saving a bit of money, it's that it takes Harald's (and
other's) minds of getting a dry place to work, by making me (and maybe
Jan, haven't asked him) do the shopping, money handling, most of the
setup (obviously, nobody minds help with that), whilst still
maintaining a lot of freedom. 

Hope this helps anyone.

Best regards,
Marcus

[1] e.g. 
https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Pavillon-Mana-3x3x2-5-m-Polyester-110-g-m/6232783/artikel.html
[2] e.g. 
https://www.hornbach.de/shop/Multifunktionstisch-3tlg-300-x-60-cm-hoehenverstellbar/5841611/artikel.html
[3] https://www.ikea.com/de/de/p/gunde-klappstuhl-weiss-60217799/

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 10:51 +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Further updates:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 07:01:09PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 06:54:04PM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> > > pricing.  The smallest possible tent (6m x 3m) would cost 825
> > > EUR.  I'm not
> > > sure we want to raise that amount of money?  Even if we'd be 10
> > > people sharing
> > > it, its still 82.50 EUR per person.  And that excludes any
> > > tables/chairs.
> > 
> > FYI, the 825 EUR 6m x 3m tent would be:
> > * Height: 2.30m, PVC curtains, cassette floor.
> > * Price includes buildup and teardown.
> > * As we need to check every order with our contractor for
> > availability,
> >   please allow for up to 10 days for a confirmation of your order.
> 
> * I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly
> less
>   but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional
> wooden floor,
>   180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).
> 
> * I was in touch with Jan from stratum0, which is the hackerspace
> organizing
>   the "singularity city".  There are various (german) details
> available at
>   https://singularitycity.de/ and 
> https://singularitycity.de/kosten.html.  They
>   will organize a large 8x12m tent, plus kitchen tent, plus another
> one for workshops,
>   refrigeration for drinks, breakfast buffet, power distribution,
> lighting, ...
> 
>   There would be a EUR 75 fee per Person, which I think is rather
> fair considering
>   the other options, where renting a tent alone would get us into the
> same order
>   of magnitude.
> 
> In any case, what I need *now* is feedback from those people actually
> attending
> 
> Do you prefer
> 
> 1) an "Osmocom village" without infrastructure such as a shared large
> "hack tent", or
> 
> 2) an "Osmocom village" with a rented tent, and you are willing to
> contribute
>    up to EUR XXX, or
> 
> 3) an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd
> have to
>    contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.
> 
> Please provide your feedback no later than June 23rd, 23:59 CEST. I
> will
> be making arrangements (or no arrangements) on June 24th, before
> leaving on
> holidays.
> 
> Regards,
> 	Harald
> 
> -- 
> - Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           
> http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
> =====================================================================
> =======
> "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing
> option."
>                                                   (ETSI EN 300 175-7
> Ch. A6)



From laforge at gnumonks.org  Sat Jun 22 18:22:50 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:22:50 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now
In-Reply-To: <9d7cc5ceca576e772e10f299926f80255877f511.camel@hostalia.de>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
 <9d7cc5ceca576e772e10f299926f80255877f511.camel@hostalia.de>
Message-ID: <20190622182249.GA3862@nataraja>

Hi Marcus!

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 07:28:02PM +0200, Marcus M?ller wrote:
> first of: from the choices presented, singularity sounds best. 

Ok, then there's a clear trend.

> I don't know whether I'd even have the privilege to join that, tbh.

I don't think you need to worry about that.

> Considering I've been benefiting from spatial vicinity to osmocom very
> much last camp, I feel like I should be contributing here. 

Thanks :)

> Honestly, if that doesn't feel too sketchy, I could pick up a couple of
> standard pavillon things [1] on the way, and bring enough rope, zip
> ties, and tape to make that work in all but the harshest weather.

Thanks for the offer.  I am personally a bit more sceptical towards the
durability of this lowest-cost approach.  Also, Pavillions of course
don't have side walls.  That's nice for air flow, but also means that
they provide literally zero protection from anything but the smallest
amount of rain with no wind.

> That'd cost 5?/m? of "roofed area". Rough estimate: 6 seats per
> pavillon, if we put tabling in the middle, i.e. single-digit euros in
> tent costs pP. I'd probably go for three pavillons in total.
> 
> The real problem I'd see is table space, and seating.
> We could go for pasting tables (hopefully, this is how you'd translate
> /Tapeziertische/)[2]. 

Honestly, I think anything below "Bierbank" style equipment[1] doesn't make
much sense.

> I honestly have no idea how to address that; any car that I could reasonably rent
> to drive ~1500km wouldn't have space for beer tent benches, [...]

We could order whatever stuff in advance and store it at my place in
Berlin.  I have quite some storage space in my garage.  That way one
wouldn't have to drive things for 1500km through Germany.

However, I don't have a vehicle larger than a regular limousine car
to transport things to/from camp.

> Maybe we could rent tables and chairs locally, but I'd assume they'd
> require us to provide safe/clean flooring if we want to do that. 

Not for "beer tent" benches + tables, which can also be rented.  Not
sure about the rates.

> One thing, though: I don't want to produce a couple of tables, a few
> pavillons, and folding chairs in waste. So, we'd ideally come up with a
> plan for what to do with the gathered infra after camp. That could
> involve storing some at my or someone else's place, communal space or
> donating it to someone who can put it to sensible use.

I can certainly store some amount of stuff (as long as it's still in a
condition to remain used) at my home, so it could be reused at the very
least at the next camp in 4 years.

Something like two Bierzeltgarnituren (each a tables + 2 benches) I'd
actually offer to buy out of my own pocket, as I'm sure I'd have use
for them at other occasions in my garden.

> Hope this helps anyone.

Thanks again for your offer.  I guess the big questions is whether
we will join singularity city, if not, I guess you volunteering is a
good thing.  If we are joining singularity city, then I suppose it's
much less critical as there should at least be some space for us in the
shared large tent.  Probably not sufficient for everyone to sit there
all day long, but then people also will be moving around...

btw: I will be bringing the "Osmocom fan base", if you remember it from
last time.  It has been operating at the sysmocom offices during the
last for years ;)

btw2: There's a singularity city organization mumble meeting coming up
on July 2nd.  Maybe somebody wants to join that to get a better feeling
of whether we would still need to bring extra tests and/or
tables+seating in that case.

Regards,
	Harald

[1] https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bierzeltgarnitur-Festzeltgarnitur-Set-Garnitur-Sitzgruppe-Biertisch-Juskys/372647893973?hash=item56c38b9bd5:g:-I8AAOSwUR9cqx4S

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From marcus at hostalia.de  Sat Jun 22 19:31:14 2019
From: marcus at hostalia.de (Marcus =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=FCller?=)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 21:31:14 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now
In-Reply-To: <20190622182249.GA3862@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja>
 <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja> <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
 <9d7cc5ceca576e772e10f299926f80255877f511.camel@hostalia.de>
 <20190622182249.GA3862@nataraja>
Message-ID: <0e4f5b85997a46bac8ee00664534968c80208c2a.camel@hostalia.de>

Hey :)

So, yeah, I think the convergence towards singularity is clear.

If you think it's not a problem if I join, I'd gladly do that. Hope
there's room for the three or four other GR/openembedded folks that
probably would like to join, but that's something that I should
probably ask the singularity folks myself, and discuss with the
GRfolks. Mostly coming by plane, I'd guess that they'd ask me to
organize stuff, anyways.

Anyways, I like the direction this is taking: There's enough Hornbachs,
IKEAs and equivalents scattered around that this would work as last-
minute fall back in any case.

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 20:22 +0200, Harald Welte wrote:
> Thanks for the offer.  I am personally a bit more sceptical towards
> the
> durability of this lowest-cost approach.  Also, Pavillions of course
> don't have side walls.  That's nice for air flow, but also means that
> they provide literally zero protection from anything but the smallest
> amount of rain with no wind.

Yep, that's why there's 50? of tarp on that cost estimate :)
> 
> > That'd cost 5?/m? of "roofed area". Rough estimate: 6 seats per
> > pavillon, if we put tabling in the middle, i.e. single-digit euros
> > in
> > tent costs pP. I'd probably go for three pavillons in total.
> > 
> > The real problem I'd see is table space, and seating.
> > We could go for pasting tables (hopefully, this is how you'd
> > translate
> > /Tapeziertische/)[2]. 
> 
> Honestly, I think anything below "Bierbank" style equipment[1]
> doesn't make
> much sense.

Yes, there's beauty in solid tables for any purpose you'd want a table
to fulfill.

Also, these are way, way cheaper than I'd have guessed. So, that'd
*clearly* rule out the Tapeziertische.

> 
> > I honestly have no idea how to address that; any car that I could
> > reasonably rent
> > to drive ~1500km wouldn't have space for beer tent benches, [...]
> 
> We could order whatever stuff in advance and store it at my place in
> Berlin.  I have quite some storage space in my garage.  That way one
> wouldn't have to drive things for 1500km through Germany.
> 
> However, I don't have a vehicle larger than a regular limousine car
> to transport things to/from camp.

Yeah, so I for once in my life decided to get a car (carsharing) that's
larger than my former '99 Punto, so knowing how much I can stuff in a
Punto, I'm pretty confident that most items smaller than Bierbanks are
transportable, no matter from where.

Idea: I'll ask the logistics of that Bierzeltgarnitur supplier whether
they do deterministic-day delivery. That solves 50% of the
transportation problem.

> 
> > Maybe we could rent tables and chairs locally, but I'd assume
> > they'd
> > require us to provide safe/clean flooring if we want to do that. 
> 
> Not for "beer tent" benches + tables, which can also be rented.  Not
> sure about the rates.

I'd really think this would be the solution of least effort, if
actually possible.

> 
> > One thing, though: I don't want to produce a couple of tables, a
> > few
> > pavillons, and folding chairs in waste. So, we'd ideally come up
> > with a
> > plan for what to do with the gathered infra after camp. That could
> > involve storing some at my or someone else's place, communal space
> > or
> > donating it to someone who can put it to sensible use.
> 
> I can certainly store some amount of stuff (as long as it's still in
> a
> condition to remain used) at my home, so it could be reused at the
> very
> least at the next camp in 4 years.
> 
> Something like two Bierzeltgarnituren (each a tables + 2 benches) I'd
> actually offer to buy out of my own pocket, as I'm sure I'd have use
> for them at other occasions in my garden.

Oh! Tempting! 

If you're paying for all the furnishing out of your own pocket, the
least I could do would be transporting them to Berlin after camp (which
is more or less on the way home, anyways); a tiny bit of research
yields that with the seats folded down, the Renault Kangoo that I'll
actually have has 150cm of storage depth, so that's only 70cm of
hangover. That's definitely doable within the bounds of StVO and common
sense, if we can find a Spanngurt to fixate the stuff.

> > Hope this helps anyone.
> 
> Thanks again for your offer.  I guess the big questions is whether
> we will join singularity city, if not, I guess you volunteering is a
> good thing.  If we are joining singularity city, then I suppose it's
> much less critical as there should at least be some space for us in
> the
> shared large tent.  Probably not sufficient for everyone to sit there
> all day long, but then people also will be moving around...
> 

Awesome!

> btw: I will be bringing the "Osmocom fan base", if you remember it
> from
> last time.  It has been operating at the sysmocom offices during the
> last for years ;)
> 

hehe. I have a new laptop, but it's overheating even more frequently
than the previous one. <insert ode to my old X201>

> btw2: There's a singularity city organization mumble meeting coming
> up on July 2nd.  Maybe somebody wants to join that to get a better
> feeling of whether we would still need to bring extra tests and/or
> tables+seating in that case.
> 
> Regards,
> 	Harald
> 
> [1] 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bierzeltgarnitur-Festzeltgarnitur-Set-Garnitur-Sitzgruppe-Biertisch-Juskys/372647893973?hash=item56c38b9bd5:g:-I8AAOSwUR9cqx4S
> 



From vogelchr at vogel.cx  Sun Jun 23 19:17:17 2019
From: vogelchr at vogel.cx (Christian Vogel)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:17:17 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now
In-Reply-To: <0e4f5b85997a46bac8ee00664534968c80208c2a.camel@hostalia.de>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190622182249.GA3862@nataraja>
 <0e4f5b85997a46bac8ee00664534968c80208c2a.camel@hostalia.de>
Message-ID: <3915671.vTrtOmJKK4@thinkstation>

Hi Everyone,

I'd love to also join the osmocom crowd at camp, if you don't mind, so I've 
added myself to the Wiki page.

I'll arrive in our trusty Opel Zafira from around the Nuremberg area, so if 
necessary, I could possibly carry some unwieldly stuff and/or personnel ;-).

        Chris





From laforge at gnumonks.org  Mon Jun 24 05:45:34 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 07:45:34 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now
In-Reply-To: <3915671.vTrtOmJKK4@thinkstation>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190622182249.GA3862@nataraja>
 <0e4f5b85997a46bac8ee00664534968c80208c2a.camel@hostalia.de>
 <3915671.vTrtOmJKK4@thinkstation>
Message-ID: <20190624054534.GK3862@nataraja>

Hi Christian,

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 09:17:17PM +0200, Christian Vogel wrote:
> I'd love to also join the osmocom crowd at camp, if you don't mind, so I've 
> added myself to the Wiki page.

of course!  Looking forward to seeing you!

-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)


From laforge at gnumonks.org  Mon Jun 24 05:58:35 2019
From: laforge at gnumonks.org (Harald Welte)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 07:58:35 +0200
Subject: [camp2019-village] Your input required now (Re:Osmocom Village
 at CCC Camp 2019)
In-Reply-To: <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
References: <20190621165404.GU25425@nataraja> <20190621170109.GV25425@nataraja>
 <20190622085150.GK25425@nataraja>
Message-ID: <20190624055835.GL3862@nataraja>

Dear all,

update:

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 10:51:50AM +0200, Harald Welte wrote:

> * I received an alternative quote for tent rental for significantly less
>   but still quite pricey: EUR 574 (250 for the tent, 144 for optional wooden floor,
>   180 for delivery, build-up, tear-down and removal).

FYI: The best alternative quote for a 6x3m tent with wooden floor incl.
delivery/buildup/teardown/pickup I received by now is EUR 294.

> 3) an "Osmocom village" part of "Singularity city", which means you'd have to
>    contribute EUR 75 for the singularity city tax.

The majority of people have indicated a preference for that option, so
I will set that in motion.

The question is now whether we want to rent a separate "daytime" tent
despite being part of singularity city or not.  I'm personally inclined
to go for the "let's keep it simple" option and rely on the singularity city
infrastructure, but I'm also happy to chip in if people think we better make
sure to have more than enough space and put up another tent (at 8 people
that would be another 36 EUR per person).

My offer to buy some "beer garden" tables/benches and make them
available (excluding logistics) still holds/stands, irrespective of any
of the above.

Regards,
	Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge at gnumonks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
============================================================================
"Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option."
                                                  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)